[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":55193},["ShallowReactive",2],{"/podcast/deep-dive-196-ai-recht-mit-dr-peggy-mueller":3},{"podcast":4,"pickOfTheDayCount":160,"speakerCount":161,"relatedPodcasts":162,"transcript":163},{"id":5,"published_on":6,"type":7,"number":8,"title":9,"slug":10,"description":11,"transcript":12,"audio_url":13,"apple_url":12,"google_url":12,"spotify_url":12,"cover_image":14,"banner_image":26,"speakers":36,"members":96,"picks_of_the_day":113,"tags":155,"tagsPrepared":156,"speakersPrepared":157},"43e773d5-f186-4d8a-a4da-2cba77cc12ba","2025-11-25T05:00:00.000Z","deep_dive","196","AI-Recht mit Dr. Peggy Müller","deep-dive-196-ai-recht-mit-dr-peggy-mueller","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">„KI ist gekommen, um zu bleiben”, sagt Dr. Peggy Müller. \u003Ca href=\"https://www.advant-beiten.com/experten/cv-professional/dr-peggy-mueller\">Die Anwältin unterstützt Unternehmen dabei, KI-Tools und Produkte der künstlichen Intelligenz rechtskonform einzuführen und zu nutzen.\u003C/a>\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Gemeinsam mit Peggy und unserem wiederkehrenden Gast Richard Hartmann spricht Jan über die rechtlichen Fragen und Hürden, die bei der Integration von KI-Systemen immer wieder aufkommen. Dabei geht es um die interne Nutzung von KI-Tools, Urheberrechte an AI-generierten Inhalten und ihre Folgen sowie \u003Ca href=\"https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/selfie-affe-101.html\">einen berühmten Schopfmakaken, der für ein Grundsatzurteil sorgte\u003C/a>.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Außerdem erläutert Peggy, welche Anforderungen beim Bereitstellen von KI-gestützten Produkten und Dienstleistungen wie Chatbots gelten, worauf man beim Training oder Fine-Tuning eigener Modelle achten muss. Erfahrt in dieser Folge, welche \u003Ca href=\"https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/regulatory-framework-ai\">Anwendungsfälle der AI Act künftig besonders streng regelt – von Deepfakes bis zu Hochrisiko-Systemen\u003C/a>.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Dieser Podcast ist keine Rechtsberatung.\u003C/p>",null,"https://www.buzzsprout.com/176239/episodes/18210873-deep-dive-196-ai-recht-mit-dr-peggy-muller.mp3",{"id":15,"title":16,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":17,"filename_download":18,"metadata":19,"type":20,"filesize":21,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":22,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":24,"folder":12,"width":25,"height":25,"charset":12,"duration":12},"21f2caaa-6b8c-4458-9e76-62c8211dbecc","196 Ig Fb Peggy Mueller","21f2caaa-6b8c-4458-9e76-62c8211dbecc.png","196_ig_fb_Peggy Mueller.png",{},"image/png","2449185","2025-11-18T13:38:56.881Z","11a655b6-bcfc-4c6c-a13c-68189e38edb9","2025-11-18T13:38:56.877Z",1501,{"id":27,"title":28,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":29,"filename_download":30,"metadata":31,"type":20,"filesize":32,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":33,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":34,"folder":12,"width":35,"height":35,"charset":12,"duration":12},"375cb5e9-1c6b-4e7f-a40d-88a960739cc5","Peggy Mueller Profile","375cb5e9-1c6b-4e7f-a40d-88a960739cc5.png","Peggy Mueller_profile.png",{},"321230","2025-11-18T13:39:12.814Z","2025-11-18T13:39:12.812Z",512,[37,67],{"speaker":38},{"id":39,"slug":40,"academic_title":12,"occupation":41,"first_name":42,"last_name":43,"description":44,"event_image":45,"profile_image":58},"fddf6ba9-d51c-4f48-afbf-a83ea9e46605","richard-hartmann","Legal-Referent bei Lotum","Richard","Hartmann","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Richard ist bei Lotum für alle rechtlichen Angelegenheiten des Unternehmens zuständig. Mit seinem Hintergrund in Elektro- und Informationstechnik und jahrelanger Erfahrung als Berater für Datenschutz und IT-Sicherheit vereint er technisches Know-how mit tiefem Verständnis für rechtliche Fragestellungen. Er ist die Schnittstelle von Technik und Recht.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Darüber hinaus widmet er sich leidenschaftlich seinen Elektronik-DIY-Projekten mit ESP32, Arduino und Co, fliegt mit seiner FPV-Drohne, zockt Wirtschafts-, Strategie- und Aufbauspielen oder gräbt seinen Garten um.\u003C/p>",{"id":46,"title":47,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":48,"filename_download":49,"metadata":50,"type":51,"filesize":52,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":53,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":54,"uploaded_on":55,"folder":12,"width":56,"height":57,"charset":12,"duration":12},"d63bb294-156a-4948-8a66-d21b7fd43f7a","Richard Hartmann Event","d63bb294-156a-4948-8a66-d21b7fd43f7a.jpg","Richard_Hartmann_event.jpg",{},"image/jpeg","1471486","2024-09-03T14:44:10.766Z","e97179d2-51b3-4deb-828f-9524091441f5","2024-09-03T14:44:10.506Z",1536,1024,{"id":59,"title":60,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":61,"filename_download":62,"metadata":63,"type":51,"filesize":64,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":65,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":54,"uploaded_on":66,"folder":12,"width":57,"height":57,"charset":12,"duration":12},"351369fd-6d0f-4803-b1f9-292636bd4b7c","Richard Hartmann Profile","351369fd-6d0f-4803-b1f9-292636bd4b7c.jpg","Richard_Hartmann_profile.jpg",{},"716114","2024-09-03T12:00:47.059Z","2024-09-03T12:00:46.931Z",{"speaker":68},{"id":69,"slug":70,"academic_title":71,"occupation":72,"first_name":73,"last_name":74,"description":75,"event_image":76,"profile_image":85},"d5274a0c-5421-4049-b6e2-9e9b8f9a1fec","dr-peggy-mueller","Dr.","Rechtsanwältin und Partnerin bei ADVANT Beiten","Peggy","Müller","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Peggy ist Fachanwältin für gewerblichen Rechtsschutz und beschäftigt sich vorwiegend mit den Themen IP-Rechte (Urheberrecht, Markenrecht, Designrecht und vieles mehr) sowie IT-Recht mit Rechtsfragen rund um den Bereich Information Security. Sie betreut viele Mandant:innen aus dem Bereich Video Games, da sie sich aufgrund ihrer langjährigen Tätigkeit in der Rechtsabteilung von Nintendo hier viel Expertise angeeignet hat.\u003C/p>",{"id":77,"title":78,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":79,"filename_download":80,"metadata":81,"type":51,"filesize":82,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":83,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":84,"folder":12,"width":56,"height":57,"charset":12,"duration":12},"3990a450-f965-4a9a-8c5b-f1cfdfcdfa56","Peggy Mueller Event","3990a450-f965-4a9a-8c5b-f1cfdfcdfa56.jpg","Peggy Mueller_event.jpg",{},"1033296","2025-11-25T07:49:47.832Z","2025-11-25T07:49:47.829Z",{"id":86,"title":87,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":88,"filename_download":89,"metadata":90,"type":51,"filesize":91,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":92,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":93,"folder":12,"width":94,"height":95,"charset":12,"duration":12},"f7ce5b33-5baf-4746-8805-b1ff31ca5de8","Mueller Peggy Portrait","f7ce5b33-5baf-4746-8805-b1ff31ca5de8.jpg","Mueller_Peggy_Portrait.jpg",{},"750927","2025-11-25T07:49:44.007Z","2025-11-25T07:49:44.004Z",1668,2008,[97],{"member":98},{"id":99,"first_name":100,"last_name":101,"occupation":102,"description":103,"normal_image":104},"47099351-508c-44d9-a2a2-855181c72ee8","Jan Gregor","Emge-Triebel","// programmier.bar Tech Community Lead // Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Jan ist ein echter Technik-Fan mit einer facettenreichen Karriere, die sich über Web-, Mobile-App-Entwicklung und DevOps erstreckt. Dank seiner vielfältigen Rollen – vom Entwickler über den Teamleiter bis hin zum Vice President Development – verfügt Jan über einen großen Erfahrungsschatz in der Softwareentwicklung und Developer Advocacy.\u003Cbr>Seine Leidenschaften jenseits der Technik reichen von Tauchgängen an exotischen Orten über das Eintauchen in digitale wie analoge Spiele bis hin zum Abtauchen in gelungene Plot-Twists in Büchern und Filmen.\u003C/p>",{"id":105,"title":106,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":107,"filename_download":108,"metadata":109,"type":51,"filesize":110,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":111,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":54,"uploaded_on":112,"folder":12,"width":57,"height":57,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b","Jan CD","ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b.jpg","Jan_CD.jpg",{},"649400","2024-07-26T09:26:17.846Z","2024-07-26T09:26:17.710Z",[114,129,142],{"id":115,"name":116,"website_url":117,"description":118,"image":119},"32f96b79-e093-403e-a8be-5f06ceafd819","Das Narrenschiff von Christoph Hein","https://www.suhrkamp.de/buch/christoph-hein-das-narrenschiff-t-9783518432266","\u003Cp>Ein Roman, der Geschichte schreibt – wortwörtlich. In diesem Gesellschaftsroman lässt Autor Christoph Hein unterschiedlichste Menschen quer durch die DDR-Geschichte aufeinandertreffen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Trotz ihrer unterschiedlichen, teils höchstkomplexen Hintergründe haben sie doch eines gemeinsam: Sie alle sind Mitglied eines Systems, dessen Schicksal sich vor ihren Augen abspielt und dessen Ausgang immer ungewisser wird.\u003C/p>",{"id":120,"title":12,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":121,"filename_download":122,"metadata":123,"type":51,"filesize":124,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":125,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":126,"folder":12,"width":127,"height":128,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ab75e86f-77be-43ee-8757-265b5eb83b63","ab75e86f-77be-43ee-8757-265b5eb83b63.jpg","www-suhrkamp-de-buch-christoph-hein-das-narrenschiff-t-9783518432266.jpg",{},"110548","2025-10-23T16:15:29.021Z","2025-10-23T16:15:29.019Z",1366,768,{"id":130,"name":131,"website_url":132,"description":133,"image":134},"354e79f3-d8d5-4bf3-9b94-91d384a8b19e","For all Mankind","https://tv.apple.com/de/show/for-all-mankind/umc.cmc.6wsi780sz5tdbqcf11k76mkp7","\u003Cp>Die Serie „For all Mankind“ entführt euch in eine alternative Version der jüngeren Vergangenheit. Im Jahr 1969 schafft es die Sowjetunion als Erstes auf den Mond und von da an läuft alles anders. In mittlerweile vier Staffeln (und mehr in Planung) erzählt die Serie von Apple TV die Geschichte der NASA und zeigt auf, wie sich die (realistisch erzählte) Geschichte hätte entwickeln können.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Wer „Der Marsianer“ von Andy Weir gelesen hat, sollte hier auf jeden Fall einschalten.\u003C/p>",{"id":135,"title":12,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":136,"filename_download":137,"metadata":138,"type":51,"filesize":139,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":140,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":141,"folder":12,"width":127,"height":128,"charset":12,"duration":12},"06cbe9fc-ec48-4b0f-9614-4cace1c890bb","06cbe9fc-ec48-4b0f-9614-4cace1c890bb.jpg","tv-apple-com-de-show-for-all-mankind-umc-cmc-6wsi780sz5tdbqcf11k76mkp7.jpg",{},"134124","2025-10-23T16:08:22.104Z","2025-10-23T16:08:22.100Z",{"id":143,"name":144,"website_url":145,"description":146,"image":147},"5e4e5908-785c-4b2d-b872-83a66784fa90","Make Sonderheft 2025 - Ikea-Hacks","https://shop.heise.de/make-sonderheft-2025-ikea-hacks/pdf","\u003Cp>Wohnst du noch oder hackst du schon? Die Make-Zeitschrift hat sich der heimischen Selbstbau-Elektronik verschrieben und widmet dieses Jahr gleich eine ganze Sonderausgabe dem Thema Möbelhacks rund um Ikea.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Egal ob „Wasserstopp mit ZigBee“, „Küchenschrank als Mediacenter“ oder „Ikea-Tisch smarter steuern“ – mit einer riesigen Auswahl an DIY-Projekten ist für jede:n etwas dabei, um Spaß an und mit den eigenen Möbeln und neuer oder alter Elektronik zu haben!\u003C/p>",{"id":148,"title":12,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":149,"filename_download":150,"metadata":151,"type":51,"filesize":152,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":153,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":154,"folder":12,"width":127,"height":128,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ccd05f3f-bb7b-4f85-9d2b-0d28ae443b1c","ccd05f3f-bb7b-4f85-9d2b-0d28ae443b1c.jpg","shop-heise-de-make-sonderheft-2025-ikea-hacks-pdf.jpg",{},"92407","2025-10-23T16:13:09.084Z","2025-10-23T16:13:09.081Z",[],[],[158,159],{"first_name":42,"last_name":43,"profile_image":58,"slug":40,"description":44,"event_image":45,"academic_title":12},{"first_name":73,"last_name":74,"profile_image":85,"slug":70,"description":75,"event_image":76,"academic_title":71},461,191,[],{"id":164,"service":165,"supported_features":166,"speakers":169,"raw_response":177},"0916730f-a0ef-46ae-bf17-9b671c3bab18","deepgram",[167,168],"timestamps","diarization",[170,173,175],{"identifier":171,"name":172},"0","Jan",{"identifier":174,"name":42},"1",{"identifier":176,"name":73},"2",{"metadata":178,"results":192},{"transaction_key":179,"request_id":180,"sha256":181,"created":182,"duration":183,"channels":184,"models":185,"model_info":187},"deprecated","8472d017-1758-42cf-bcb5-67989805173c","2ffbc63e88714934128eca5567610348ed120d78ca70cce37dea7f83e8d29832","2025-11-18T10:50:11.009Z",4853.2285,1,[186],"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3",{"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3":188},{"name":189,"version":190,"arch":191},"2-general-nova","2024-05-09.3071","nova-2",{"channels":193,"utterances":37379},[194],{"alternatives":195},[196],{"transcript":197,"confidence":198,"words":199,"paragraphs":34974},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu 1 neuen Deep Dive Folge hier in der Programmierbar, für euch im Studio wie immer hier der Jan am Start und ich bin nicht alleine. Ich hab nämlich hier doch den Richard zu Gast. Hallo Richard. Hallo. Richard, die Leute kennen dich schon aus Podcastfolgenummer. Schieß mich tot. Nein, das ist knapp daneben, es war die 160, ich hab aber nachgeholt. Ah, sehr gut. Ich hab mir das auch nicht auswendig gewusst. Gewusst. Wir haben mit dir damals über Datenschutz, DSGVO und so was gesprochen, weil ich sage, wir, meine ich Dennis. Mhm. Ja. Und die vertrauten Hörerinnen da draußen ahnen schon, wenn Richard wieder dabei ist, geht's wieder ein rechtliches Thema. Richard, über was wollen wir heute sprechen? Heute geht's über KI. Das ja. Ist das 'n rechtliches Thema? Ja, leider ja. Ah, okay. Ja, und damit wir nicht damit alleine auf weiter Flur sind, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen. Wir haben heute zu Gast im Studio Peggy Müller. Hallo Peggy, schön, dass Du da bist und Zeit für uns hast. Hallo, freu mich sehr über die Einladung. Vielen Dank. Wir freuen uns, dass Du die Einladung angenommen hast. Du bist Anwältin bei Advant BYTON und über die Firma sozusagen zu uns gekommen, Richard, nicht wahr? Über Lotrum, genau. Wunderbar. Peggy, was machst Du, wenn Du nicht im Podcaststudio sitzt den ganzen Tag? Dann sitz ich in meinem tollen Büro in der Frankfurter Innenstadt und beschäftige mich hauptsächlich mit Fragen des gewerblichen Rechtsschutzes oder besser gesagt IP Recht. Das beinhaltet Urheberrechte, Markenrechte auch mal Designrechte und auch KI Lösungen, KI Fragen und inzwischen auch 'n Großteil IT Sicherheit, Fragen zu NIS 2, falls euch das was sagt und ähnliche Abkürzungen, ja. Ich hab mir vor dieser Folge mal den Spaß gemacht, auf LinkedIn zu schauen, wer von den ganzen Leuten, die damals mit mir Rechtswissenschaft studiert haben, was die so alles machen mittlerweile und da war eine ganz große Bandbreite dabei von Immobilien, Arbeitsrecht, Umwelt, Presse, internationales Handelsrecht, maritiimes Recht war auch dabei, fand ich auch irgendwie superspannend. So, also Leute sind sehr breit aufgestellt. Was hat dich dazu gebracht, genau diesen Bereich auszusuchen, wenn es offensichtlich son riesen weites Feld ist, aus dem man wählen kann? Also im Studium hatt ich tatsächlich keine Berührungspunkte damit. Ich hab mir aber direkt nach dem ersten Staatsexamen die Frage gestellt oder ich wollte promovieren und dann hab ich mir son bisschen die Professoren bei uns an der Uni angeschaut und hab da einfach, ich werd mal ich werd mal vorstellig bei dem Professor Fehlsser seiner Zeit und da bin ich hin, hatte mir 'n Thema ausgesucht und prompt bin ich da gelandet und so bin ich dann auch diesem Thema, was mich dann so reingezogen hat, auch treu geblieben, ja? Das ist 'n überschaubarer Bereich, ja? Also ich hab tatsächlich eine Ausbildung bei der Steuerberater gemacht und Steuerrecht war immer so 'n Thema, wo ich dachte, oh Gott, das sind so viele Fallstricke, da kann man einfach so viel daneben tappen und falsch machen. Dann bin ich soeben tatsächlich beim gewerblichen Rechtsschutz gelandet, hab dann ja auch im Referendariat mit dem treu geblieben und hab dann in so 'ner kleinen IP Boutique angefangen und dann ganz lange bei Nintendo gearbeitet. Was macht man da bei Nintendo? In der Rechtsabteilung, unter anderem die ja also wir haben Nintendo hat relativ viele Rechtsstreitigkeiten geführt in dem Bereich, also ja, alles vertraulich, aber unter anderem Designstreitigkeiten, auch Patentstreitigkeiten und die betreut die Rechtsabteilung intern, eben zu schauen, was gibt's für Auswirkungen für den Fall des Urteile eben zulasten des Unternehmens ausgehen? Was muss da im Vorfeld eventuell implementiert werden? Und genau, da gucken wir und was natürlich auch viel gemacht wird, ist im Vorfeld die die Spiele, neue Designs, das läuft ganz viel durch die Rechtsabteilung, ja? Wenn's da Fragen gibt zu, beispielsweise darf man in 'nem Mario Kart Spiel zum Beispiel über den Luffel drüberfahren und Ähnliches, ja? Also das sind so Fragen, die dann auf dem Schreibtisch Spannend. Ich würd da hätten wir auch noch Folge drüber machen können, was Aber wir wollen ja eigentlich Text. Immer gerne. Aber wir wollen ja heute eigentlich über AI reden und deshalb meine Einstiegsfrage zum Thema AI an euch beide und Peggy darf anfangen. Hat AI dein Leben leichter oder schwerer gemacht? Puh, was für eine Einstiegsfrage. Also privat erleichtert mein Leben definitiv. Ich nutze es wirklich sehr viel für viele Anfragen, für viele Themen, wo ich mir 'n ersten Überblick verschaffen will, wo ich nicht so mitbewandert bin, ja, also einfach schnell 'n Überblick zu bekommen, ja, bei Reisebuchungen, mir da eine Reiserote raussuchen, ähnliches, also wirklich top. In unserem Kanzleialltag ist es natürlich 'n bisschen schwieriger, weil wir da noch aktuell in der Testphase sind bei vielen bei vielen Modellen und uns das noch genauer anschauen, was wir denn tatsächlich da implementieren. Also ich geh davon aus, dass wir da auch bald bald Tools in der Anwendung haben, die unser Leben auch da sehr erleichtern werden. Danke. Richard, wie sieht's in deinem Leben aus? Überwiegend leichter. Also Neugier zu stillen, immer jederzeit noch schneller auf Informationen, die so formatiert sind, ne, wie man's sammle zu kommen, mega. Und auch die Befähigung, die man hat. Also man kann so viel mehr machen. Ich als Nichtentwickler kann einfacher entwickeln, obwohl ich weiß, mein Code ist dann halt vielleicht Wegwerfcode. Aber ich kann halt ausprobieren und schauen oder, ne, mir das erklären lassen. Das find ich großartig, aber es kommt natürlich mit Herausforderungen. Also Frustmomente gibt es sehr. Ich hadere auch noch ganz viel mit mit Stimme, dass das immer mit alles klar antwortet und dann der Rest kommt und dass das immer so freundschaftliche Vibes ausstattet, obwohl ich vielleicht einfach nur einen Rezept oder eine Checkliste haben will. Ja, das stört mich persönlich dann auch. Aber ey, das sind Luxusthemen. Ich bin, ich finde, sehr viel einfacher. Und rein beruflich, durch die ganzen Themen, die Du jetzt damit aufm Schreibtisch hast, einfacher oder schwerer? Also rein beruflich, wenn ich jetzt gesamtheitlich betrachte, was die Chancen betrifft, immer noch sehr viel einfacher, aber ja, es kommt mit Herausforderungen. Zum Beispiel? Zum Beispiel, das die große Frage, die ich mir heute mitgebracht hab, ist so Transparenzpflichten. Wann ist etwas ein Deep Fake? Wann muss man es irgendwie kenntlich machen? Welche Ausnahmen gibt es da und so was in diese Richtung? Finde ich sehr spannend, weil ja, wir werden alle mit Channel arbeiten, ob's mit Bilderstellung, Texterstellung, ob man eine E-Mail schreibt, ob man, ne, irgendwelche Assets generiert oder ob man 'n Code damit schreibt. Was darf ich eigentlich damit und wann darf ich das? Sind sehr spannende Fragestellungen. Wir wollten uns ja diesem Thema widmen, weil das tatsächlich auch was ist, wofür wir immer mal wieder Zuschriften, Meldungen aus der Community und so weiter erhalten. Und das, was Du grade so als selbstverständlich im Prinzip schon so wieder geben hast, ja, wir arbeiten hier alle mit General und wir generieren hier Grafiken und Texte und da, das ist ja längst nicht in jeder Firma da draußen so oder in jedem Betrieb da draußen so. Was glaubst Du, macht das uns besonders einfach oder wieso können wir einfach so diese Tools nutzen? Oder sollten wir diese Tools vielleicht einfach so nutzen oder vielleicht auch nicht? Was sind so die Abwägungen, die man da treffen muss aus deiner Sicht? Also ich seh da 2 große Elemente. Erst mal, es ist eine Veränderung. Mit Veränderungen klarzukommen dauert Zeit. Also ich guck jetzt erst mal aufs Menschliche. Wenn ich etwas immer in einem in einem Weg gegangen bin, warum sollte ich's jetzt anders machen, wenn's doch schon gut funktioniert? Und dann seh ich da erst mal keine Potenziale, sondern nur natürlich nur Anpassungen und das wird Fehler auslösen und so weiter. Und das ist unbequem. Und das Zweite ist auch, je nachdem, in welcher Branche man ist, ist man vielleicht risikoaverser oder risikoaffiner oder hat mehr Risiken oder hat halt weniger Risiken. Also ich würd nicht jedem empfehlen, sofort alles mit KI zu machen, nur weil's KI ist, aber ich seh das schon als einen technologischen Fortschritt, den niemand aufhalten kann und es wird alles viel mehr in diese Richtung gehen und diese Potenziale werden genutzt werden. Ja, und jetzt müssen wir aber irgendwie herausfinden, wann darf ich denn überhaupt was nutzen und was muss ich dabei beachten? Auf rausfinden. Peggy, wie sehr glüht bei euch das Telefon, weil die Leute anrufen und fragen, meine Mitarbeiter wollen hier dieses und jenes nutzen und dürfen die das überhaupt und muss ich mir jetzt Sorgen machen und womit kommen die Leute so zu euch? Also wir haben tatsächlich eine ganze Reihe an KI Anfragen. Überwiegend geht's den Einsatz von Chatbots auf Webseiten. Also das würd ich sagen, das ist so der Haupt 1 der Hauptanwendungsfälle, gibt aber auch tatsächlich, also wirklich die ganze Bandbreite, ne. Schulungen für Mitarbeiter bis hin zu KI Richtlinien über auch Transaktionen in dem Bereich, die Frage, welche Datensätze darf ich denn wie nutzen? Und also wirklich das ganze Bandbreite. Und muss ich mir das so vorstellen, dass die Leute wirklich proaktiv zurecht kommen und dann schon so fragen? Also hier, meine Mitarbeiter würden gerne, weiß nicht, benutzen und wir würden gerne mal abklären, wie das läuft. Oder kommen die meistens erst, wenn das Kind in den Brunnen gefallen ist und jetzt noch zu klären ist, wie schlimm ist der Schaden? Wir haben unsere Mandanten, glaub ich, ganz gut erzogen. Erzogen. Genauso. Die die meisten Mandanten, die wir haben, sind ja tatsächlich Unternehmen, ja, sodass wir natürlich 'n Großteil mit Rechtsabteilungen zusammenarbeiten oder ich sag mal so Geschäftsführerebene Und die wissen die Problematiken und die kommen in der Regel frühzeitig. Möglicherweise auch aus den Erfahrungen, die man so mit der DSGVO gemacht hat, ja, wo alle sich eigentlich, glaub ich, 'n bisschen zu spät drum gekümmert haben und dann die Panik groß war. Deshalb haben wir überwiegend wenig aus dem Brunnen zu holen, sondern sind mehr an der präventiven Front unterwegs. Und wenn ihr mit euren Mandanten darüber sprecht, wie KI einzuführen ist und wir das begleiten könnt, ist da dein Eindruck oder hast Du da Einsicht von, ob das mehr so ein top down oder son Bottom up Prozess ist? Also ist das was, wo die Geschäftsführung ankommt und sagt, okay, wir wir wollen uns jetzt, wir machen jetzt auch KI. So, alle da draußen machen KI, wir machen jetzt auch KI oder ist das mehr so aus einzelnen Abteilungen oder von Mitarbeitern getrieben? Es gibt beides. Ich würde schon sagen, dass die Geschäftsleitung sich natürlich möglicherweise auch aufgrund der eigenen Nutzung der KI Tools darüber in der Gefahr ist, dass man's eben nicht vermeiden kann. Viele sind ja auch proaktiv unterwegs und unterstützen das und fragen sich dann eben, was muss ich genau tun, das eben rechtssicher zu einzusetzen? Und gibt es da so die Standard 1, 2, 3 Fallstricke, über die die meisten stolpern oder den den Standardrat, den ihr den allermeisten da schon mitgeben könnt an der Stelle? Der Standardrat würde ich sagen, frühzeitig damit beschäftigen und auch die Mitarbeiter frühzeitig schulen und nicht nicht zu lange warten, sondern es als ein Fakt ansehen. Ich hab irgendwo mal gehört, KI ist gekommen, zu bleiben und das seh ich genauso. Das wird nicht weggehen, nur weil man sich jetzt wegduckt und als Unternehmen sich nicht darum kümmert, sondern es ist sicherer aus unserer Perspektive zu sagen, gut, wir müssen uns dem stellen und wir gucken, was sind die Maßnahmen, die eben dafür erforderlich sind? Und mit welchen, ich weiß nicht, ob Sorgen das das richtige Wort ist, das klingt ja schon so negativ, aber aus welcher Perspektive vielleicht kommen die meisten eurer Mandanten dann auf euch zu? Ist das eher so, ich sag mal, Anbieter facing Datenschutz mit, oh, diese ganzen KI Anbieter, die sitzen ja in den USA und dann gehen da meine Daten hin und was muss da irgendwie beachten? Oder sind das eher so Fragen des Urheberrechts, weil meine Mitarbeiter erzeugen jetzt unsere ganzen Katalogbilder nur noch mit ChatGPT und können und dürfen wir das überhaupt? Oder sind das eher Fragen, weil sie vielleicht selber KI Modelle betreiben, trainieren, feintunen, wie auch immer wollen und dann fragen, woher kommen wir an die Daten und was dürfen wir damit machen und so? Also, was ist da so die der Winkel da drauf? Also eine meiner ersten KI Anfragen war tatsächlich von Richard und zwar zum Der Lotung wieder ganz vorne mit dabei, muss man jetzt einfach Ganz vorne. Was hab ich denn gefunden? Ganz vorne mit dabei. Ihr habt damals gefragt, inwieweit das möglich ist, eben Rätsel auch mithilfe von KI zu generieren und die Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss und wo da die Fallstricke sind und ob man gegebenenfalls in die Haftung kommt und so weiter, ja. Ja, wieder Fragen oder Bilderwetzelt oder was war das? Keine Ahnung von Reden. Fragen, Kindergarten. Nee, redtexturra. Es ging nicht Bilder. Nee, es ging nicht Bilder, sondern es ging tatsächlich Fragen und die entsprechenden Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss, ob ob die Antworten richtig sind, was denn passiert, wenn die Antworten eventuell falsch sind und und und. Das ist ja ein guter, ich jetzt kann's Richard fragen, wo wir damals aufgepasst hat. Richard, wie ist es denn, wenn Du jetzt so Fragen generieren lassen? Ich glaube, es ging, wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, jetzt kommt's wieder, danke, User generated content, also Spieler*innen sollten in der Lage sein, Thema anzugeben und zu ihrem Thema sollten dann Fragen generiert werden. Ich erinner mich. Aber das Problem sind natürlich Halluzinationen. Was, wenn's nicht korrekt ist? Was, wenn da anderes Zeug rauskommt, was man nicht haben will? Muss man das kennzeichnen? Wie kann man das kennzeichnen? Also all diese Fragen, glaub ich, waren so die ersten. Okay, aber dann lass uns doch bei dem Beispiel bleiben. Also wir haben jetzt hier eine nicht Quizplanet genannte generische Quiz App, sagen wir mal, die wir bauen wollen würden. Und ich will mir jetzt 1000 Fragen dafür generieren lassen, weil ich zu faul bin, sie selber zu schreiben und ich würd das gerne automatisieren. Erst mal, darf ich das? So, ich ich frag so als als ganz einfache Laie so, kann ich mir mit AI Content generieren lassen und dann dafür Geld verlangen, auch wenn ich da gar nicht selber Arbeit reingesteckt hab? Kann kann ich da trotzdem mitmachen, was ich will? Mir fällt nichts Entgegensprechendes für diesen Use Case ein. Es gibt natürlich andere Problemfelder, die grundsätzlich untersagt sind, mit KI zu machen. Also wenn's Fragen geht, glaub ich, ist weniger ein Problem. Wenn's irgendwie Emotionserkennung, Gesichtserkennung, mir fällt jetzt nicht alle alles, was man da fragt. Ja, ich meine tatsächlich so jetzt auf reiner Content eben, ne, weil immerhin ist da jetzt, weiß ich nicht, ChatGPT hat mir 1000 Quizfragen erstellt und jetzt könnte er morgen OpenAI bei mir anklopfen und sagen so, sind ja meine Quizfragen, die hat ja meinen ChanningPity für mich erstellt. Gib mir mal bitte hier deinen deinen Gewinn von deiner App irgendwie ab. Ich glaube, das kann nicht passieren. Das das ist, also der erste Schritt ist natürlich die Vereinbarung, was ist Teil der Leistung mit dem Anbieter, mit 'nem KI Anbieter, ne. Und da wär vielleicht im Vornherein wichtig, man nimmt nicht das kostenlose persönliche, den persönlichen Zugang. Also ich will für Allgemeine jetzt nicht nur auf einen Anbieter, weil da oft andere Konditionen drin sind, ne. Also wenn man den bezahlten Dienst macht, da muss man natürlich in die Details gucken, das kann man jetzt pauschal nicht beantworten, dann hat man da eine Sicherheit, dass nichts mit den eigenen Daten trainiert wird, was für viele wichtig ist, wenn man da doch irgendwelche Unternehmen eine Geheimnisse oder so was preisgeben will. Das wär schon in 'ner ersten Stelle sehr wichtig, ohne dass wir überhaupt in Datenschutz, KI Verordnung, Urheberrecht IP insgesamt irgendwie reinrutschen. Und auf jeden Fall ein sehr wichtiger Tipp, wenn man das in egal welcher Form machen will. Ist vielleicht generell 'n guter Tipp. So AGBs lesen von den Diensten, die man irgendwie nutzt. Ja. Wird oft nicht gemacht. Wird oft nicht gemacht. Also schadet nicht, das zu wiederholen, diesen Tipp. Das ist richtig. Okay, jetzt hab ich also meine 1000 Fragen und jetzt, weil KI natürlich nicht perfekt ist, sind von den 1000 Fragen 200 falsch. Bin ich da, Peggy, irgendwie haftbar zu machen, wenn meine Quiz App jetzt da draußen in der Welt ist und behauptet, der Zweite Weltkrieg hat in den Siebzigerjahren stattgefunden? Also Du könntest in dem Fall deinen App, deinen Käufern, wenn's bezahlter Content ist, ja, könntest Du gegenüber haftbar sein aufgrund der vertraglichen Pflichtverletzungen, ja, weil Du lieferst eine App, die einfach nur Mist erzählt, ja, oder falsche Antworten gibt, ja, dann ist die Frage, ne, Du willst ja eine App haben, die funktioniert und die dich auch inhaltlich weiterbringt oder die, die dir zumindest dich zum Denken anregt und und Du dann auch am Ergebnis die richtige Antwort zu, dass ich mir da vorstellen könnte, dass man tatsächlich hier das als mangelhaftes Produkt ansehen würde, wo Du unter Umständen die Möglichkeit hast, den Kaufpreis so es den einen gibt, zurückzuverlangen, ja. Und ich kann mich als App Macher an der Stelle nicht darauf berufen, dass er mein, also mein AI Anbieter ja auch eine Fürsorgepflicht hat, dafür zu sorgen, dass das alles richtig ist und ich mich einfach blind auf den verlassen hab, sondern ich muss da selber schon auch noch mal eine gewisse, Sind wir wieder bei den AGBs, die man lesen muss. Ja. Auf die eigenen AGBs, die man schreiben muss. Genau, die kommen auch noch dazu. Weiß dich ja auch drauf hin, dass eben Fehler passieren können, ja, und dass Du doch bitte selbst noch mal die Überprüfung vornimmst, ob dieser Content denn zutrifft oder nicht, ja, sodass die Verantwortung da tatsächlich bei dir liegt. Also dass Du, man kann natürlich mal drüber nachdenken, ob's dann irgendwelche Ansprüche dir gegenüber dem dem Anbieter des, nehmen wir Open AI oder 'n anderes Large Language Models geben könnte. Ja, kommt dann eben auch wieder auf den Vertrag drauf an, den Du mit denen geschlossen hast, ne. Also kritisch wird's aus meiner Sicht am ehesten dann, wenn wenn wir jetzt Beispiel nehmen, was Richard grade erwähnte, dass Du dass Du sagst, ich möchte ausschließen, dass Daten, beispielsweise Daten der Nutzer zum Training benutzt werden, uns passiert dann doch, dann bist Du als datenschutzrechtlich Verantwortlicher ja gegenüber deinen Nutzern verantwortlich. Hast aber dann hast aber dann eben die Problematik, ne, es ist trainiert. Also sprich, es gibt dann irgendwo 'n Löschungsanspruch und da müsste man sich mal überlegen, ob man das weiterreichen könnte. Ich hätt da noch was zu ergänzen. Also eben ganz wichtig, was verspricht man selber den Usern? Was steht in den Eigendefinitionen der Leistung, die man erbringen wird? Also auch da wieder AGB oder halt im im Programm, in der Software selber nicht mal das, wenn man von sich gibt, bei uns gibt es 100 Prozent richtige Quizfragen, alle geprüft, dann ist man natürlich, hat man 'n Problem. Aber wenn man offen tut, hey, wir haben hier eine tolle Sache, Du kannst deine eigenen Quizfragen generieren lassen mit 1 KI, Achtung, es ist eine KI, es kann natürlich Ungenauigkeiten beinhalten, aber Du kannst trotzdem mehr mit Spaß haben und meistens ist richtig, das muss man nicht dazuschreiben, aber dann ist es ja okay. Ja, da hat man dieses Risiko mitigiert. Mhm. Mhm. Aber also, das sind ja 2 unterschiedliche Fälle, die Du gerade beschrieben hast. Ne, das eine ist, ich nutze KI selber, mein Produkt zu entwickeln, aufzufüllen, weiterzubauen, wie auch immer. Und das andere ist ja, ich biete selber irgend eine Art von KI Feature meinen eigenen Usern an, wo ich ja dann quasi der der Anbieter auch auch werde, ja. Und jetzt ist natürlich dieser dieser Punkt, wo Du gedacht hast, ne, also Du generierst ja eigene Quizzes oder keine Ahnung, ich ich biete so einen KI Bildgenerator an oder 'n Chatbot für andere, den sie auf ihrer Webseite dann anbinden können. Das macht es mir ja eigentlich unmöglich zu kontrollieren, was meine KI, die ich hier anbiete, den ganzen Tag so fabriziert. Weil es kann ja keiner von mir erwarten, dass ich von meinem KI Chatbot jedes Protokoll mitlese, jedes Bild angucke, was da generiert wird, jedes Quiz angucke, was da da generiert wird und kann man sich dann wirklich so einfach frei machen davon, indem man sagt, ja, ist ja KI und müsste ja wissen, dass es im Zweifelsfall irgendwie Murks ist, ist ja eure Verantwortung, lieber User, da mal drauf zu schauen und zu gucken, ob alles rechtens ist. Viel Spaß damit. Kann ich das so verkürzen oder muss ich nicht auch am Ende, wenn mein, ich sag mal ganz übertrieben, wenn mein Chatbot irgendwie eskaliert und die die Kunden mit Profanitäten beleidigt oder so was, ja, bin ich nicht trotzdem dafür verantwortlich, was der da so tut, weil der ist ja mein Produkt. Ja, es gibt ja diese ganzen Fälle, ne, man hat das ja so manchmal online mitgekriegt, irgendwie son son son Chatbot fängt halt an, Kunden wüst zu beschimpfen oder so was, ja. Wenn ich jetzt hier, weiß ich nicht, Salesforce bin und biete meinen Customer Support Bot an für Lotum, so, und jetzt ist der auf der Lotum Webseite und die Kunden fragen da, hey, ich komm hier bei 4 Bilder ein Wort nicht weiter, kannst Du mir bitte helfen, bla? Und dann fängt der Chatbot an zu sagen, ja, Du bist aber blöd, ist doch nicht unser Problem, ja, so. Und dann fühlt sich da son Kunde irgendwie angegriffen und beleidigt. Ja, ich weiß nicht, ob da jetzt 'n Schaden aus Anspruch, Klaus. Ja, das ist jetzt son sehr son sehr kleiner Fall, ja, aber man kann es ja beliebig schlimm sich ausdenken eigentlich, ja. Und das war so meine Frage son bisschen, ne. Wenn wenn wenn ich setze da son Produkt in die Welt rein und ich muss ja irgendwie dafür verantwortlich sein, was es so tut. Mhm. Ja, ich glaube, der der Tipp ist das nicht zu versprechen, dass wenn man eine KI einsetzt, alles geprüft und richtig ist. Das ist der einzige Weg, wie man damit verantwortlich umgehen kann, denk ich. Also alles zu prüfen ist keine Möglichkeiten, es nicht zu prüfen und sich blind darauf zu verlassen und zu Qualitätsversprechend abzugeben, ist natürlich auch nicht clever. Ja, also bleibt eigentlich nur noch, dass dass man eben die dieses Versprechen nicht abgibt, dass alles perfekt ist. Und was auch aus meiner Sicht immer wichtig ist, ist eine menschliche Kontrolle, ne, dass Du einfach sagst, wenn eben so Fälle auftreten, dass beispielsweise der Chatbot aus dem Ruder läuft, ja und dass man dann eben son wie auch immer geartete Überwachung hat, dass man das relativ schnell merkt und dann eben auch eingreifen kann und sich dann eben auch mit dem entsprechenden Chatbot Anbieter in Verbindung setzt und schaut, dass das möglichst zeitnah dann auch geregelt wird oder eben der vorübergehend abgeschaltet wird. Aber diese Verhältnis ist dann ja eher auf Vertragsebene zwischen dem Anbieter des Chatbots und die als Unternehmen, also nicht mit den Kunden. Sind 2 verschiedene. Mhm. Mhm. Es gab ja relativ früh in dieser KI Welle diesen Fall, über den, glaub ich, viel berichtet wurde, irgend 'n Chatbot hat auf der Webseite 1 Autohändlers dem Kunden 'n Auto für einen Dollar verkauft, weil der Kunde den Chatbot quasi so lange bearbeitet hat, bis der Chatbot irgendwann gesagt hat, ja, klingt nach 'nem fairen Deal und können wir so machen. Und hat dann am Ende auch seinen Anspruch da durchgesetzt und dieses Auto für 'n Euro bekommen. Das hat, glaube ich, viele erst mal so verschreckt, weil am Ende sie quasi in die Haftung genommen werden für das, was die KI da Kunden gegenüber verspricht. Ist das auch sone Sorge, die bei euch aufkommt und die Leute dann sagen, na ja, wenn ich jetzt hier KI in mein Produkt bringe, ja, ja, wie wie kann ich da, wie kann ich da sone Glaubhaftigkeit irgendwie auch erzeugen? Also Oder das Gegenteil. Oder das Gegenteil, ja. Ja, das Gegenteil, ganz klar. Also wenn ich jetzt überlege, wir wollen Support cases einfacher von von der KI bearbeiten lassen, zum Teil, nicht komplett, ne, nur in bestimmten Fällen und so was, dann muss klar sein, egal was die KI da ausgibt, das ist von der KI geschrieben. Also es muss die Möglichkeit geben, das irgendwie an Menschen zu eskalieren. Es muss die Möglichkeit geben. Das ist auch purer purer Eigeninteresse. Also wir wollen niemandem dahinters Licht führen oder so. Wir wollen ja nur, dass die Fälle schneller und einfacher bearbeitet werden, vielleicht schneller irgendwo 'n Look-up in in den oder so was, ne. Also das ist definitiv die Empfehlung. Und das hilft einem natürlich dann auch, falls es doch irgendwie 'n Auto für einen Euro verkauft, zu sagen, na ja, da sagen, na ja, da ist ganz klar drauf hingewiesen worden. Da verbindet jederzeit mit 'nem Mensch, das eine KI, die Antwort, die Aussagen können, Ungenauigkeiten oder Falschaussagen beinhalten. Aber in der Regel helfen sie und deswegen bieten wir das ja an. Also maximale Transparenzoffensive an der Stelle? Definitiv. Okay. Jetzt haben wir ganz lange darüber gesprochen, wie das mir und meinen Kunden gegenüber quasi so ergehen kann. Wie ist das denn in der internen Nutzung, wir hatten da ganz am Anfang son bisschen drüber gesprochen, diese diese Quizfragen, ja. Wir haben ja jetzt auch hier mit 4 Bilder ein Wort, ein ein ein Produkt, was super bildlastig, Bildergenerierung geht ja auch mittlerweile sehr, sehr gut. Was ich mich da immer frag ist, wem gehören denn diese ganzen oder wer hätte denn das Urheberrecht an diesen KI erzeugten Bildern, weil das ja, gerade wenn sie Teile von unseren Spielen sind, ja schon auch irgendwie relevant sein kann, oder? Ich mein, ich ich kann das auch gestehen, ja, wir haben auch von den Programmierballogos auch in den Assets sind auch son paar KI generiert, ja. Pst, das hat keiner gehört. Und ich frag mich dann immer so, ja, also wir machen das, alle anderen machen das irgendwie auch, aber sind das wirklich meine Bilder am Ende? Oder wessen Bilder sind das, die jetzt auf dieser programmierbar Webseite sind? Nicht deine jedenfalls oder also nicht. Das Problem ist, das Urheberrecht kommt zur Anwendung und das Urheberrecht, das gibt's ja schon seit geraumer Zeit. Und da steht eben drin, dass die geschützten Werke müssen persönlich geistige Schöpfungen sein, ja? Und persönliche geistige Schöpfungen sind nur solche, die von Menschen generiert werden, ja? Also da gab's in, was nicht, 20 15, 16 gab's son Fall, wo 'n Affe, vielleicht kennt ihr das, 'n Affe, naruto, hat son 'nem Kameramann die Kamera aus der Hand genommen und son Selfie gemacht. Und da wurde dann auch 'n Verfahren in den USA zwar, aber geführt, ob eben es Urheberrechtsschutz gibt an diesem L Selfie, was dieses die diese Affe generiert hat. Und da haben die Gerichte gesagt, nein. Und das ist per heute Standard, also weder tierisches noch maschinengenerierter Output, wie wir's nennen, ist urheberrechtsschutzfähig. Okay, da da hätt ich eine Folgefrage dazu. Klar. Wenn ich mich jetzt vor Adobe Illustrator setze oder so was und ein Bild damit male, ich bin Urheber dieses Bildes, oder? Auch wenn ich's am Computer gemalt hab, aber ich hab's ja trotzdem gemacht. Ja. Wenn ich jetzt bei ChatGPT, Google, wo auch immer, meinen Prompt eingebe, bin ich ja auch Schöpfer dieses Prompts. Also ich sag ja der Maschine, was sie tun soll, genauso wie ich in Illustrator sage, mach hier einen roten Punkt, mach da eine blaue Linie, mach dieses und jenes. So ist ja das prompt auch nur eine andere Art von Anweisungen, die quasi die Maschine umzusetzen hat. Wo ist da der Unterschied? Der Unterschied ist, dass Du durch den prompt nur eine zufällige Herausgabe, Also Du bekommst nur 'n zufälliges Ergebnis. Das hast Du nicht wirklich in der Hand, ja, weil wenn Du den gleichen Prompt eingibst, einmal heute und einmal morgen, dann kommt jedes Mal 'n unterschiedliches Ergebnis raus. Und das ist der Unterschied, dass Du sagst, Du kannst es eben nicht beeinflussen, sondern die der Output stammt einfach von der Maschine. Je nachdem, wie die eben trainiert wurde, kannst Du eben ganz unterschiedlichen Output herausbekommen. Also das ist Also ich bin voll bei dir, dass das herrschende Meinung ist und dass das so Aber ich bin auch Verfechter 1 anderen Meinung. Ich glaub nämlich auch, also die die schöpferische Prägung muss ja von 'nem Individuum kommen, ne. Das heißt, die die Entscheidungen, die persönlichen Entscheidungen, wie das Werk am Ende sein soll, soll von einem Menschen kommen. Und da kann ich verstehen, wenn auch wenn's da mit dem Foto 'n Selfie von sich macht, dass das eben nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt ist. Ist. Aber ich seh KI in vielen Fällen wie ein Werkzeug. Also wenn ich jetzt 'n Fenster aufmachen würde und meine Staffel leider irgendwie in den Garten werfe und dann regnet's zufällig drauf und dann werbe ich das an die Wand und sag, voila, Kunst. Dann dann werden doch, dann würden ja alle sagen, wow, genial, Kunst. Aber es war eigentlich zufällig, ob jetzt 'n Vogel grad vorbeigefahren ist oder jetzt geregnet hat oder wie auch immer das dann aussieht. Und ich hab die Entscheidung nur getroffen, da eine Staffel 3 rauszuwerfen. Und trotzdem wär das, glaub ich, urheber richtig geschützt, würden zumindest viele sagen. Bei 'ner KI, glaub ich, kommt's drauf an, wenn ich nur reinschreibe, schönes Haus, dann wär's natürlich zu wenig. Aber wenn ich den Zusammenhang zwischen dem, was ich getan hab, also dem prompt oder ne, einzelne, also mittlerweile ist ja nicht nur 'n prompt, man kann ja auch mehr Verarbeitungsschritte da haben und dem, was man dann am Ende sieht, Mhm. Wenn man diesen Zusammenhang herstellen kann, dann verstehe ich noch nicht, dass man sagt, dass man pauschal sagt, KI ist überhaupt nicht schutzwähig. Weil ich, also man man ist ja schon soweit ganz klar, dass man sagt, ja, der Text, der prompt, ne, den kann man schützen, das ist ja, glaube ich, logisch. Man hat sich diesen Text ja erdacht, aber den den Schritt von dem prompt, also der Anleitung, den Entscheidungen, die man macht für das Kunstwerk zum Kunstwerk und diesen Zusammenhang, wenn der stark genug ist, dann wär ich schon der Meinung, dass man das vielleicht würdigen kann, oder? Könnte man meinen. Es gibt allerdings in den USA schon entgegengesetzte, nicht also es gibt eine Entscheidung vom US Copyright Office. Und zwar gab's einen Künstler, der hat ein KI generiertes Bild erstellt und hat das dann noch mal mit 600 Proms oder über 600 Proms noch mal nachbearbeitet und hat das dann eingereicht. Und selbst da war das Copyright Office der Meinung, also nein, auch das reicht nicht aus. Und das Bild sieht, so wie's ursprünglich war, zu dem, wie's dann mit diesen 600 Prom verändert wurde, schon tatsächlich deutlich anders aus. Aber auch das hat nicht gereicht. Und das schon sone hohe Hürde, dass man aktuell sagen kann, wohl eher schwierig, das schützen zu lassen. Letzten Endes, es gibt noch nicht viele Gerichtsentscheidungen, ne, also kann sich auch irgendwann anders rauskristallisieren, aber per heute scheint sich das so überall so durchzusetzen, dass man sagt, nee, einen Schutz gibt's dann Und das heißt aber, dass diese ganzen Bilder, die damit jetzt generiert worden sind, die gehören eigentlich niemandem. Richtig. Und das heißt, wenn ich jetzt auf, weiß ich nicht, ich finde auf Amazon ein Buch, von dem ich erfahre, dass der Autor das eigentlich nur mit k I geschrieben hat, weil er gedacht hat, der kann so als unabhängiger Autor reich werden, Kann ich mir dieses Buch dann beliebig kopieren, ohne eine Urheberrechtsverletzung zu begehen? Weil ja kein schützenswerter Inhalt drin ist. Die Frage ist natürlich, die sich stellt, kannst Du, also wenn Du gesichertes Wissen hast, dass dieses Buch rein KI generiert ist, ja, und keinerlei sonstiger großer menschlicher Input dazu ist, dann würd ich sagen, ja, kannst Du dir kannst Du dir sozusagen zu eigenen Aber wie gesagt, am Ende wird es wird's dazu Gerichtsentscheidungen geben müssen, ja. Aber per heute würd ich sagen, ja. Richard, Du wolltest grade noch was fragen. Ja, zum Thema Zufall. Eine KI funktioniert ja erst mal komplett deterministisch. Also wenn man auf 0 Ohne Temperatur, das war das wär jetzt auch meine andere Frage, ne. Ohne Temperatur, ne, dann ist es so, dass alles, was man als Input gibt, ja, also also immer wenn man denselben Input gibt, gibt's denselben Output, 100 Prozent. Wenn man, das ist bei manchen, also bei manchen Umgebungen kann man das einstellen und auf 0 setzen, das keinerlei Zufall und dann ist es immer gleich. Gut, das beantwortet natürlich nicht die schöpferische Leistung, die dahintersteckt im eigenen Prompt, aber zumindest kann man dann sagen, es gibt keinerlei Zufall, dass der Computer da großartig mitwirkt, sondern ich nutze es als reines Werkzeug. Also genauso wie die Pixel, die ich mit 'ner digitalen Spraydose mache, ist ja auch Zufall, aber es ist 'n Mittel, was ich bewusst einsetzen kann, mein Bild zu erzeugen. Und damit kann ich rumspielen, damit kann ich was schau, ne, machen, damit ich genau das Bild rausbekomme, was ich will. So so wär zumindest meine Herangehensweise, aber ich hoffe auch, dass vielleicht der ein oder andere Richter sich davon überzeugen lässt in Zukunft, weil es wär natürlich schade, wenn so was gar nicht schützenswert ist. Werden wir sehen. Na, gab's so was in der Geschichte schon mal, dass es ein ein ein Medium, ein Werkzeug gab, wo man erst davon ausgegangen ist, es kann keinen Urheberrechtsschutz genießen und im Nachgang dann durch Weiterentwicklung oder durch, wie Richard grade beschrieben hat, sone bessere Nachvollziehbarkeit von dem, was da passiert ist, wo sich dann so was doch eingestellt hat? Müssten wir mal ChatGPT fragen. Jetzt sag keine Idee. Ich, nee, das weiß ich nicht. Ich hab grad überlegt, weißt Du, so die ersten elektronischen Musikinstrumente oder irgendwie so was, ne, wo ja auch, ne, weil weil also Es wär nichts bekannt dazu. Also Urheberrecht funktioniert ja so, dass man sagt, 'n Mensch muss irgendwie eine schöpferische Tätigkeit leisten und so weiter. Aber für Fotoaufnahmen gibt's ja noch mal getrennt davon eine Norm. Ist das nicht was Vergleichbares, also es geht eine andere Richtung, aber dass man für ein bestimmtes für ein bestimmtes Werkzeug eine Sonderregel schafft und sagt, Fotos sind immer schützenswert, egal ob Du die Kameraeinstellung beherrscht oder nicht. Oder ist das nicht so? Das stimmt. Also Lichtbildwerke werden anders geschützt. Also Lichtbilder, Lichtbildwerke, ist jetzt sehr juristisch ehrlich gesagt, ja. Lichtbilder haben einen kürzeren Schutz, ja, sind aber per se immer geschützt. Ich glaub, es gibt 'n paar Ausnahmen. Aber natürlich, es gibt auch so gewollte Regelungen, die der Urheber, der Gesetzgeber ins Urhebergesetz aufgenommen hat, ja. Also zum Beispiel Presseverleger und so was, ja. Also da gibt's durchaus einige Regelungen, die man so als bewusst, wo man gemerkt hat, hier fehlt son bisschen der Schutz nach dem, wie man's halt vor 100 Jahren irgendwann mal zusammengeschrieben hat. Computerprogramme zum Beispiel, ne, ist auch sone Sache, wo man eben im Nachhinein gemerkt hat, da braucht man noch 'n paar Sonderregelungen und dann hat man das einfach aufgenommen. Genau. Also kann sich durchaus entwickeln. Per heute versucht man natürlich immer noch mit dem gegebenem Gesetzeswerk, das das neue Medium KI drunter zu schaufeln und muss eben gucken, wo's rauskommt. Aber klar, wenn man da merkt, dass es da eine Regelungslücke gibt, dann ist durchaus denkbar, dass sich der Gesetzgeber da noch mal bewegt. Jetzt haben wir darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI meinen Kunden gegenüber nutze. Wir haben darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI sehr benutze. Der letzte große Fall, wahrscheinlich der seltenste, aber der Interessanteste ist ja, was muss ich beachten, wenn ich selber eigene KI Modelle bauen, trainieren, feintunen möchte, so. Weil das ja auch nicht so ganz ohne ist. So am Ende stehen und fallen diese Modelle mit den Daten, mit denen sie quasi trainiert und gefüttert werden und an die muss ja auch erst mal rankommen. So, da wär jetzt meine erste Frage, ganz laienhaft so, was darf ich denn dafür überhaupt nehmen? Alles, was ich im Internet finde, Fragezeichen? Also am einfachsten ist, Du nimmst nur deine eigenen Datensätze, ja, die Du bei dir eigenes Wissen, was Du bei dir so in der Firma vorhanden hast. Das ist am einfachsten, weil da hast Du die Rechte dran und da kann im Regelfall nichts passieren. Das ist der leichteste Fall. Dann schwieriger wird's schon, wenn Du Daten, also Du kannst dir natürlich Datensätze einlizenzieren von Dritten, ja, sei es, wenn Du sagst, Du willst jetzt Videos erstellen, Shutterstock oder Ähnlichen, ne. Das geht. Da muss man eben dann genau drauf achten, wie sind die Lizenzbedingungen? Wofür darf ich sie benutzen? Darf ich sie eben, darf ich sie kommerziell benutzen? Darf ich sie zum Training benutzen? Also da gibt's eine ganze Reihe unterschiedliche, auch unterschiedlich teurer Modelle dann oder Lizenzmodelle natürlich. Genau. Und komplizierter wird's im Bereich personenbezogene Daten, aber Okay, bevor wir da dazu kommen, vielleicht eine Frage zu dem, ich muss die Sachen lizenzieren, die ich dafür nutzen will. Weil ich verstehe, dass ich, wenn ich hier Bilder irgendwie nutzen will, ne, kauf ich mir eine Lizenz, dann kann ich die in meinen Spielen, in meinen Printartikeln, keine Ahnung, überall benutzen. Weil ich ja quasi dieses Bild auch 1 zu 1 wiedergebe, so. Wenn ich jetzt aber ja nur mein LLM damit trainiere, an mit 'nem Bild oder mit 'nem Text, wie auch immer, dann findet sich ja dieses Ding später nicht mehr in dem LLM und es ist auch nur sehr schwer bis unmöglich, daraus wieder abzuleiten, ne. Wieso muss ich das denn dann lizenzieren, wenn ich es ja gar nicht vervielfältige sozusagen? Es ist ja nicht so, dass ich jetzt irgendwie Kopien von dem Bild verkaufen möchte, sondern ich nutz es ja nur einmal für mich intern. Niemand da draußen sieht es. Wieso muss ich da trotzdem für zahlen? So mal ganz ketzerisch gefragt. Also es gibt natürlich noch die, es gibt noch sone Schrankenregelung, ja, im im Urheberrecht, jetzt wird's 'n bisschen technisch. Danach darf man, das das ist das sogenannte Text and Data Mining, ja, dazu dürfen Daten zum Training von KI benutzt werden, es sei denn, der Rechteinhaber hat 'n Vorbehalt erklärt. Und mittlerweile ist es tatsächlich so, dass natürlich sämtliche großen Datensatzinhaber diesen Vorbehalt erklärt haben, ja. Also sei es alle großen Zeitungen, Zeitschriften, ja, also sämtliche Bilddatenbanken, die erklären eben diesen der eigentlich die Recht innehber, hat es mir verboten sozusagen. Und mich aus diesem Verbot freizukaufen, muss ich dann quasi Lizenz erwerben. Ich hab so verstanden, dass im Urhebergesetz eine Ausnahme gibt, also das Text im Data Mining Ausnahme. Und in dem Rahmen, was der ist, kann ich nicht genau sagen, aber in dem Rahmen darf man das, außer Das man hat widersprochen. Nee, außer man hat selber widersprochen, dass man's für die, also dass jemand das mit den eigenen Daten darf. Okay. Dann hatt ich dich grad unterbrochen, als wir zu den Benutzerdaten gekommen waren. Wenn ich mein Modell auf Daten trainieren will, die von anderen Benutzern, anderen Dritten Da hatt ich eigentlich den Blick schon Richtung Richard gewendet, weil da hat Richard, Tommy more. Richards Lieblingsbericht. Ich würd noch gern ergänzen, wie kann man überhaupt sich davor schützen? Also wie kann man selber son Opt out machen? Ich möchte nicht, dass die Webseite der programmierbar von der KI gescrept wird, ne. Kann ja auch 'n häufiger sein. Ja. Und da gibt's die Möglichkeiten, im robot txt das zu schreiben. Also da gibt findet man auch viele Vorlagen irgendwie im Internet und so was. Oder auch andere, ex robot Tags Tags, no AI Tags. Da bist Du wahrscheinlich versierter als ich, wie man das genau macht. Oder ganz hart einfach nur die bekannten AI Skraper und Crawler irgendwie blocken. Aber das ist eine interessante Frage, weil Du auch grade gesagt hast, Peggy, das sind manche Zeitungen und Verlage das ja quasi pauschal schon schon ablehnen. Wenn Du mir das jetzt nicht gesagt hattest, hätt ich das natürlich a nicht gewusst, aber das ist ja meine eigene Schuld. Aber steht ja auch jetzt nicht ganz groß oben auf der Zeitung drauf, ne. Also wenn ich hier die Frankfurter Rundschau aufschlage, steht ja nicht, Banner oben auf Seite 1, bitte nicht in dein AI Model schmeißen. Wo woran kann ich denn überhaupt erkennen oder wie sehr muss ich da nachforschen, nachfragen et cetera, ob das erlaubt ist oder nicht? Oder wie sehr ist da der der Inhaltsersteller in der Pflicht, das möglichst markant zu machen, dass er das nicht möchte? Also sämtliche großen Zeitschriften beispielsweise, die haben diese Text zum Data Mining, diesen Ausschluss alle auf ihrer Webseite erklärt und das müsstest Du auch einhalten. Da bist Du schon auch selber in der Pflicht, wenn Du die trotzdem benutzt, ist es dann eben unter Umständen Urheberrechtsverletzung, weil Du deren ausdrückliche ausdrücklichen, wie sagt man, Vorbehalt eben nicht respektierst. Das Teil ihrer AGBs einfach Genau. Ja, okay. Ja. Also die meisten haben's eben, wie Richard sagte, in dieser Robo txt Datei drin, aber oft wird's eben auch noch wirklich in den AGBs erklärt oder als extra lesbarer Vorbehalt, sodass Du auch als Mensch es eben gut finden kannst. Also Maschinen- und menschenlesbar, ich glaub, da kann man nicht zu viel machen. Problem ist dann immer noch, woher willst Du wissen, ob das funktioniert hat? Also Du kannst es ja schlicht nachweisen. Das ist 'n guter Punkt. Wer ist denn da am Ende in der Pflicht und in der Verantwortung eigentlich? Also wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI, ohne Ihnen was zu unterstellen zu wollen, aber weil's einfach so der Größe da draußen ist, wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI gehe und sag, ihr habt aber euer GPT an meinen programmierbaren Folgen hier trainiert und ich finde das böse und gemein und will mein Geld zurück, Wie wie läuft das? Also es gibt ja mittlerweile schon eine ganze Reihe an Prozessen, ja, sowohl in den USA, aber auch tatsächlich in Deutschland an den diversen Gerichten. Und da wird eben dann, also in der Regel sind's die Gerichte schon so, dass das Vervielfältigungen sind, also urheberrechtliche Handlungen. Und dann ist eben die Frage, ne, durfte man's, durfte man's nicht? Gibt's Vorbehalte, die erklärt wurden, die wirksam erklärt wurden? Wie sieht das aus? Zum Beispiel ein Gerichtsfall am Landgericht Hamburg, da geht's eben auch diese dieses Graping. Da ging's aber darum, dass diese Daten gescraped worden von 'nem Verein, der das zu wissenschaftlichen Zwecken gemacht hat. Und dafür gibt's wieder eine besondere Ausnahme, ja. Und da haben sich die Richter aber auch tatsächlich son bisschen bisschen schon geäußert zu dieser zu dieser Frage des Vorbehalts, ja, und ihre Lösung da son bisschen proklamiert. Und dann gibt's beispielsweise auch 'n anderen Fall, der ist jetzt beim EuGH gelandet, also am höchsten europäischen Gericht. Der kommt aus Ungarn und da war's tatsächlich so, dass ein Zeitschriftenverleger nachweisen konnte, dass bei Gemini 'n gewisser Text eben 1 zu 1 wiedergegeben war, sodass die Verletzung relativ klar war, da ist jetzt eben die Frage, wie ist das juristisch zu bewerten? Und weil das Gericht in Budapest gesagt hat, das ist alles Europarecht, das können wir so nicht beurteilen, ohne uns da direkt in in vom höchsten Gericht einfach mal die die Fragen beantworten zu lassen, haben die das direkt da zum EuGH geschickt. Also das ist tatsächlich alles momentan noch im Fluss und ja, wird man sehen, wie Jetzt ist das ja der sehr einfache Fall, ne. Ich fang an, weiß nicht, die ersten 2 Sätze von meinem Werk irgendwie in son LLM zu füttern und das spuckt mir den Rest aus, dann ist offensichtlich klar, scheinbar war mein Text hier im Trainingsdatensatz. Aber das eigentliche Training ist ja quasi das Geschäfts, Betriebsgeheimnis von diesen ganzen Firmen und es ist ja superintransparent, was da passiert, was die überhaupt zum Trainieren verwenden, wie sie die Daten vielleicht vorher noch aufbereiten, verkürzen, keine Ahnung, was alles, hab ich da, also also für mich als Laie seh ich da ja eigentlich überhaupt gar keine Möglichkeit, wenn wir jetzt bei unserem Beispiel bleiben, überhaupt auch nur zu verstehen, ob die programmierbaren Folgen jemals bei OpenAI gelandet sind oder nicht, weil sie ja eigentlich nicht offenlegen müssen, was sie da benutzen, oder? Per heute müssen sie noch nicht offenlegen, aber nach dem AI Actwitz eine Verpflichtung geben, dass offengelegt werden muss, welche Trainingsdaten benutzt wurden. Aber auch da ist momentan nicht klar, in welcher Granulat das erfolgen muss, ja. Ob dann wirklich steht, wenn ich's richtig im Kopf habe, ist es tatsächlich mehr sone allgemeine Verpflichtung. Also das Gesetz kommt ja auch erst im nächsten Jahr zur Anwendung, sodass sich da dann auch im Nachhinein erst noch rausbilden muss, wie die Praxis das handhabt, ja. Also das ist aktuell noch nicht klar. Und AI Act klingt ja erst mal so sehr europäisch. Ja. Oder ist es auch, ja. Das heißt, muss sich ein Google, ein Open AI, ein Apple überhaupt daran stören? Ja. Warum? Sie sind ja nicht in Europa. Die bieten's aber hier an. Ah. Also können Sie ja auch ganz Europa ausschließen, wie Sie schon mit DSGVO vorhatten, weil wie Sie so nerven, aber tun Sie nicht. Okay. Und für uns gilt das übrigens, egal ob wir's für Europa anbieten oder nicht, nur weil wir hier sitzen schon. Ich wollt grad sagen, wir wohnen ja aber auch hier, das das versteht. Ja, ja, okay. Mhm. Okay, wunderbar. Bei dem Datenschutz dabei zu bleiben, wenn meine User Daten auf meiner Plattform generieren, darf ich die dann einfach so benutzen? Müssen wir jetzt erst mal fragen, sind das personenbezogene Daten? Macht das einen Unterschied? Ja. So haben wir gar kein Datenschutzthema, wenn's keine personenbezogenen Daten sind. Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, die Okay. Wir verweisen noch mal auf die Folge 160, zu lernen Die Munition von so der Daten. Personenbezogene Daten unterscheidet davon. Vielleicht, also der einfache Fall ist offensichtlich, es sind keine personenbezogene Daten, ja, dann geht das wohl. Es ist es kommt wirklich drauf an. Also wenn aus den Daten, die generiert werden, also jemand tippt irgendwo was ein, ne, dann ist natürlich erst mal Personenbezug ganz klar da, weil irgend eine Art von ID IP Adresse oder irgendwas kann ich ja alles weg anonymisieren. Genau, dafür brauchst Du dann, das ist auch eine Verarbeitung selbst, brauchst eine Rechtsgrundlage, aber wenn's dann anonym ist und legitim anonymisiert wurde, ist man dann eigentlich aus dem Datenschutz raus. Solang der Inhalt natürlich nicht selbst irgendwie 'n Personenbezugsdatum ist. Das heißt, wenn Du irgendwie meinen schreibst, hi, ich bin der Jan und ich wohne innen, dann hast Du da auch schon was drin. Oder halt 'n, ne, es ist, alles hängt und steht und fällt mit Anonymisierung möglich oder nicht, glaub ich. Und muss ich meinen Nutzerinnen grundsätzlich eine Option geben, da rauszuobten aus diesem Prozess? Oder ist das quasi meine Geschäftsentscheidung, ob ich das anbieten will oder nicht? Wenn ich jetzt, weiß nicht, bin eine Fitness App, so, ja. Und ich guck mir hier alle aufgezeichneten Joggingstrecken an, 'n Modell zu trainieren mit wann laufen Leute, wie gut und wie schnell und bla. Da interessiert mich ja nicht, ob das Hans Müller war oder der Richard oder keine Ahnung was, sondern das kann ich ja gut anonymisieren. So, und dann trainiere ich jetzt damit meinen Fitnesscoach Modell, so, ja. Muss ich dann dabei meinen Nutzern, deren Daten ich ja verwende, eine Option geben zu sagen, ich möchte, dass ihr meine Daten nicht zum Training verwendet oder kann ich das anbieten, wenn ich möchte, bin aber nicht dazu gezwungen? Also mir ist, wenn wir davon ausgehen, es sind keine personenbezogenen Daten, ist mir keine Norm bekannt, dass man das anbieten muss. Aber wir würden andere Glocken klingeln. Ich würde erst mal sagen, okay, warum, wofür machen wir diese Verarbeitung? Geht's sind irgendwie Gesundheitsdatenrichtungen? Dann haben wir da Riesenproblem Ja, das ist, was war das alles allgemeine Datenschutz wahrgenommen. Oder auch KI Fragen. Da gibt's auch eine lange Liste an Themen, die man nicht anfassen darf mit KI. Warum? Welche? Ein Blick ins Gesetz erspart viel Geschwätz. Die kann ich nicht alle auswendig. Ist zum Glück auch nicht unser Ding. Und die darf ich mit KI nicht anfassen im Sinne von, ich darf sie mit KI nicht verarbeiten oder ich darf sie nicht nutzen, meine KI zu trainieren? Es gibt verbotene Praktiken im KI Bereich, die sind in Artikel 5. Das klingt schon ominös. Ja. Und Da steht da so drin und jetzt musst Du auch vorlesen. Ist, vorlesen geht nicht, sonst wären wir heut nicht mehr fertig. Das sind wir sehr lang. Und dann gibt's noch Hochrisiko KI Systeme und da auch noch eine Liste an Themen und Arten der Verarbeitung, die man nicht mache sollte oder nur unter über so Hochrisiko KI Systeme darf man aber nur, wenn man lange Liste an Anforderungen einhält, die ich wirklich nicht kann und jedem raten würde, macht das nur, wenn das wirklich euer Hauptgeschäftszweck ist, weil es ist sehr viel Arbeit. Peggy, hast Du da die Executive Summary, warum es Sachen gibt, die ich mit meiner KI nicht machen können, darf? Also die Thematik ist so, bisschen die gerät man eben durch die durch diese gesundheitsbezogenen Daten eventuell in dem Bereich Medizinprodukt, was in diesen Hochrisiko KI Bereich fällt. Das ist, glaub ich, in die Richtung, in die in die Du gehst, ne. Und wenn man Hochrisiko KI ist, dann gelten eben deutlich strengere Anforderungen an den Anbieter dieser dieser dieser App oder dieser dieser KI. Genau, also zum Beispiel, was bestimmt die, was was bestimmt sie unter anderem? Man muss man muss das in der EU Datenballe registrieren, beispielsweise das Medizinprodukt und ganze Reihe an anderen Compliance Regeln, die man einhalten muss. Also Konformitätsbewertung und ja, also wirklich eine ganze Litanei. Ist da ein Kriterium auch von son bisschen versuchen, Diskriminierung im Modell zu verhindern? Ich hab da vor Kurzem mal 'n spannenden Vortrag zugehört, was so, ne, Baiers, der schon im Datensatz drin ist, wird ja dann multipliziert potenziell von meinem Modell, ja. Und wenn dann natürlich das Modell dafür verantwortlich ist, weiß nicht, im medizinischen Bereich, im Sicherheitsbereich, irgendwo Entscheidungen zu treffen, na, geht's dann so was, dass ich quasi als Anbieter mehr darauf achten muss, keinen Bias in meinen Datensätzen zu haben, keinen Bias in meinem Produkt zu haben, als das jetzt vielleicht bei, weiß nicht, nur mal einem Chat GPT oder so der Fall wär. Ist das so der der Hintergedanke oder geht's einfach nur darum, wir wollen einfach nur wissen, also geht es dem Gesetzgeber wirklich eine eine spürbare Verbesserung der Sicherheit da drin Oder geht's in erster Linie darum, na, wir wollen überhaupt erst mal erfassen, wo das in diesem Hochsicherheitsbereich, in diesem kritischen Bereich überhaupt verwendet wird und Hauptsache, es wird erst mal registriert und dann schauen wir mal, wie wir weitermachen. Nee, dem Gesetzgeber geht's, glaube ich, darum, einfach die KI so in unterschiedlich Risikoklassen einzuclustern, ja. Also man hat halt gesagt, es gibt verbotene KI Systeme, ja, die sind schon seit Februar 25 dürfen die in der EU nicht mehr angeboten werden. Und dann hat er halt diese Hochrisiko KI Systeme und die eben besonderen Anforderungen unterliegen, eben sicherzustellen, dass diese Produktsicherheit gegeben ist, wenn Du so willst, ja? Und dadrunter sagt man, na ja, dann gibt's halt so die Chatbots und und so ganz einfach strukturierte KI KIs, die diesen Anforderungen eben nicht genügen müssen, sondern die nur Transparenzpflichten unterliegen, ja. Also sprich, Du musst eben den den Nutzern dieser KI mitteilen, dass sie mit 'ner KI interagieren. Das ist so für diese niedrigste Stufe und für die anderen versucht man eben, die so sicher wie möglich auf dem europäischen Markt anbieten zu können. Und das hat man halt versucht, so zu verallgemeinern, ne. Ich meine, Du kannst dir vorstellen, da fallen Flugzeuge drunter, da fallen aber eben auch Medizinprodukte drunter, ja, also was ja 'n wirklich ganz großes Konglomerat ist. Und das macht's nicht leicht, das dann so zu verallgemeinern. Und diese diese Registrierungspflicht ist nur eine der Pflichten. Also das ist anderes eben insbesondere Dokumentationspflichten und Ähnliches. Jetzt habt ihr mich aber trotzdem neugierig gemacht. Was sind denn diese verbotenen Fälle? Also wenn selbst bei Flugzeugen und Medizinprodukten in Anführungszeichen nur genauer hin, also ne, noch nicht das verboten ist, was gibt's denn da noch oben drüber? Ich komm gleich mit der Liste. Ist sie so lang? Also Social Scoring ist beispielsweise ein Fall, ja, dann eine ganze Reihe von Anwendungen im Bereich der biometrischen, sorry, Fernidentifizierung. Hast Du's? Okay, ich hab jetzt hier, also so was wie unterschwellig, absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, ne. Ausnutzung von Schutzbedürftigkeit wegen Alterbehinderung, besondere soziale ökonomischer Lage, soziale Bewertung, also Social Scoring. Präventive Strafbarkeits- oder Risikobewertung in dem Bereich. Aufbauerweiter kein Minority Report. Ja, so was. Aufbau von Erweiterung von gesund Gesichtterkennungsdatenbanken durch ungezieltes Graping von Gesichtern, Emotionsableitung in Arbeit und Bildung, außer wenn der Einsatz aus medizinischer Sicherheitsgründen erfolgt. Biometrische Kategorisierung, Echtzeitfernerkennung, biometrischer Merkmal in öffentlich zugänglichen Räumen, so was. Also Sachen, wo man sagt, okay, da kann wirklich Unsinn gemacht werden, was gegen unsere Grundrechte und ne, weitergeleitet halt verstößt. Und das ist dann einfach von vornherein verboten. Aber es es klingt erst mal so nach alles eher Themen, die gesellschaftlich problematisch sind Ja. Und nicht unbedingt technisch 'n Problem werden. Genau, das sind alles Sachen, die auch hoffentlich niemand von sich aus machen wollte. Also ich weiß nicht, dieses Social Scoring, da kannst Du ja in China gut punkten mit. Okay, niemand, der jetzt hier zuhört und daheim sich überlegt, wie kann ich denn die KI sinnvoll und zulässig nutzen. Okay. Cool. Aber weil Du gerade einen dieser verbotenen Punkte angesprochen hast, wie war das? Manipulieren, bewusst manipulieren, unterschwellig absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, die das Verhalten wesentlich verzerren und dadurch voraussichtlich erheblichen Schaden verursachen. Also das schreit ja so nach Deep Fake? Das schreit nach Deep Fake unter anderem, ja, so. Und Ist es aber nicht. Ist es aber nicht? Mhm. Deep Fake ist Also ist was anderes. Deep Fake, aber Deep Fake kann das sein, so, oder? Deep Fake ist was anderes. Deep Fake steht auch im AI, Ja. Aber das ist nicht verboten. Nee, genau, ist das nicht verboten. Nicht ganz so verboten wie Also, wie wie ich das als Laie grade so gehört hab, ja, klingt das für mich nach, ich nutz jetzt hier son Bilder- oder Videogenerator, irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, Bildmaterial von potenziellen Menschenrechtsverletzungen zu generieren, dann irgendwie damit Stimmungen zu machen oder so was, ja. Also bewusst falsches Material, damit irgendwie Leute zu manipulieren. Das ist aber nicht das, was Du meinst? Nee, das, also bewusst falsch, in den Verboten geht's das in Verkehr bringen, die in den Inbetriebnahme, die Verwendung von KI Systemen insgesamt. Und bei Deep Fakes ist der Begriff sehr viel weiter definiert. Also im Gesetz gibt's Definitionen, meine ich fast immer, die für dieses Gesetz dann so gelten. Und in Artikel 3 sind die alle schön aufgelistet, da unter anderem gibt's da. Vielleicht wollen wir das einmal Okay. Ja, bevor wir da aber da hinkommen. Das, was ich aber eben beschrieben habe, ja, also ich ich fälsch dir meine Bilder, irgendwie Stimmung zu machen, das ja schon, unabhängig davon, ob das jetzt Siefeg nennen oder nicht, das ist aber schon das, was damit gemeint ist, oder? Weil worauf ich hinauswill, ist eigentlich der Punkt, das lässt sich ja heute schon bewerkstelligen mit Ja. Relativ einfachen Mitteln, ne, also Bildergenerierung und so was alles. Das lässt sich ja relativ schwer kontrollieren, wofür dann Bildergenerierung genutzt wird. Ja. Ja. Ich mach jetzt hier 'n Bild von meinem verhungernden Kind und ob ich jetzt behaupte, dass es irgendwo gerade im Sudan passiert oder ob ich behaupte, ich brauch das für Bebilderungen von meinem Fantasy Roman, ja, das ist ja son sehr schmaler Grat, so technisch dazwischen, aber was ich damit mach, ist ja dann quasi eine ganz andere Geschichte. Richtig. Und das drängt ja dann jetzt schon die Frage auf, sind wir wieder bei dem Anbieter, ja, inwieweit der sich darum kümmern muss, dass diese Sachen, die bei ihm alles generiert werden, eben nicht für diesen verbotenen Use Case, den Richard grade so schön vorgelesen hat, beschrieben werden, sondern eben nur für in Anführungszeichen legitime Zwecke benutzt wird, ja. Und wenn das jetzt ja doch da dieses Verbot gibt, dann stell ich mir schon die Frage, ich jetzt als, weiß ich nicht, Nano Banana Google Dingsbums muss jetzt gucken, dass die Bilder, die ich ausspucke, idealerweise gar nicht dazu geeignet werden, diesen diesen Fall abzudecken, ja. Deswegen ist der Text so lang, ums abzukürzen. Wie immer bei diesen Gesetzen. Im Text steht nämlich mit dem Ziel oder der Wirkung, ne, also wenn Du ein System entwickelst und anbietest oder benutzt mit dem klaren Ziel, das zu tun, wenn dein allgemeines KI System ist, auch realistische Bilder darzustellen, ist das vielleicht nicht die Zielwirkung? Also ich darf keine Fake News Plattform bauen, die nur am laufenden Band Fake News produziert und auf Facebook postet. Genau. Aber ich darf benutzen, mir für meine Verschwörungstheorien die geeigneten Bilder zu generieren. Ja. Keine Ahnung, ja. Okay. Ja. Traurig aber war. Okay. Ja. Gut. Sollen wir zu Deep Facts springen? Wir haben Ich hab aber nicht schon Deep Facts, ja. Das ist großartig. Also offensichtlich ist Deep Fake nicht das, was ich grade gedacht hab, was es ist, sondern was ist es denn dann? Deep Fake ist so viel mehr, leider, weil das geht mir auch aus dem Wort, ich selber verbinde mit dem Wort eigentlich auch Deep Fake ist, wenn ich dadurch negativ beeinflusst werde und es von vornherein mich irgendwie eine in eine Richtung stimmt, die die also mich manipuliert. Echt? Hätte ich jetzt gar nicht, ne? Nee. Für mich wär Deep Fake tatsächlich einfach nur Technik, die benutzt wird, im Prinzip fotorealistische Täuschungen zu machen. Also es gab ja mal, ich weiß nicht, ob Du das gesehen hast, vor 'n paar Monaten schon, als noch Wahlkampf war, diese von von der Bild sone Kampagne, wo sie sone Olaf Scholz Rede nachgemacht haben und der halt im Prinzip erzählt so, wie ärgerlich doch das mit der Bild ist, weil die ja so tollen Journalismus betreiben und das den Politikern so schwer machen als abgesehen davon, dass das inhaltlich eine schwierige Aussage ist. Ist das das, was ich was ich meine? Ja, Du siehst Aber das ist ja auch eine Beeinflussung, eine ganz klarer. Ja, aber das liegt ja, aber ich das ich würde das nicht unbedingt mit dem Deep Fake konnieren, sondern das Deep Fake ist für mich einfach nur so, da hat halt jemand 'n Video von dem Olaf Scholz gemacht und ihm Worte in den Mund gelegt, so. Ob das jetzt gut ist oder schlecht oder böse gemeint oder nicht, ist mir vollkommen egal. Da ist da ist ein Produkt entstanden, ein eine Aufnahme, ein Dokument, was er quasi nie so selber von sich gegeben hat. So und das wäre jetzt so meine Definition davon. Ja, dann Das Schöne ist, es gibt ja eine Definition. Genau. AI Act, AI Act, ja. Die sagt ziemlich genau das. Die sagt ziemlich genau was? Das, was Du gesagt hast. Du sollst Bücher machen. Ja. Wunderbar. Also Deep Fake ist ein durch KI erzeugtes oder manipuliertes Bild, Ton oder Videoinhalt der wirklichen Personengegenständen, Orden, Einrichtigen oder Ereignissen ähnelt und in 1 Person fälschlicherweise als echt- oder wahrheitsgemäß erscheinen würde. Heißt, wenn ich jetzt mit meinem Hund G, 'n Foto mache und ihm irgendwas Lustiges anziehe, ist das 'n Diebweg. Ist das schon ein Diebweg? Ja. Ja. Und dann müssen wir gucken, was Und das ist jetzt per se verboten? Nein. Ach so. Nicht mehr verboten. Da geht's dann eher drum, okay, wir sind 'n Deep Fake und dann, was darf man dann damit machen oder was muss man machen? Und zwar Transparenzpflichten. Aber okay, also darf ich, Du darfst wahrscheinlich von deinem Hund 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil ist ja auch nur 'n Hund, so. Du darfst wahrscheinlich auch von dir selbst 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil bist Du ja selbst und Du hast ja dein, ist ja dein eigenes Bild, kannst damit machen, was Du willst. Wenn ich jetzt von dir 'n Deepfake mach, darf ich das machen? Das machen oder was damit machen? Darf ich's erst mal für mich nur machen? Ich guck's alleine an. Ich mach 'n Foto von dir im Sombrero am Arbeitsplatz und häng und guck mir das nur selber für mich an, weil ich lustig find. Das darfst Du. Ja. Ja. Schwieriger Witz, wenn's Du dann deinen Kollegen, deinen Freunden und möglicherweise irgendwo noch auf deinem Instagram Account veröffentlichst. Okay. Also dieses Sombreo Beispiel war ja noch relativ milde. Ja. Aber da gibt's ja schon problematischere Fälle. Absolut. Und auch das dürft ich machen, solang ich's nur für mich mache? Ja. Wow. Okay. Ja, okay. Okay. Und dann darf ich aber quasi, egal wie harmlos oder nicht harmlos mein Deep Fake jetzt ist, das erst mal mit niemand anderem teilen. Außer Richard hat wahrscheinlich zugestimmt. Mhm. Nee. Das Wenn Du zustimmst, dann Aber das Teil das das steht ja nichts über wo und wie Du teilen darfst. Es steht eher darum, es geht Transparenzpflichten. Musst Du sagen, dass es ein Deepfake ist oder nicht, weil man's ja nicht erkennen kann? Also selbst wenn ich dich nicht vorher frage, aber wenn ich jetzt jedem das Bild zeige und sag, übrigens, das ist ein Deepfake, aber sieht der Richard nicht lustig aus mit seinem dann ist das auch okay. Ich würde mich jetzt beschränken auf den AI Act und nicht auf etwaige Persönlichkeitsrechte und Datenschutz, dann machen wir alles durcheinander, aber rein von AI Act her, wenn ich meine Einwilligung für die Aufnahme gegeben habe und die und für die Öffentlichkeit auf Social Media und so weiter, wär das kein Problem, solang Du klar machst, das Bild wurde bearbeitet. Und Das heißt, dir droht kein Bußgeld, sodass der Richard das eventuell trotzdem nicht gut findet und aus zivilrechtlichen Unterlassungen und Ähnliches fordert, das kann dir natürlich trotzdem passieren. Und jetzt spannen wir vielleicht den Bogen zurück zu, was ist quasi handgemacht und was ist er Ärger gemacht? Wobei, vielleicht vielleicht vielleicht sollte ich mal eine Aussage visieren. Es kommt darauf an, Du musst es nicht immer kennzeichnen. Genau. Meine Frage wär nämlich gewesen, ich kann ja mit AI relativ viel an sonem Bild verändern, ja. Es gibt ja heutzutage, also es es fängt ja schon damit an, dass wenn ich mit meinem iPhone irgendwie 'n Foto mach, da ja automatisch schon AI irgendwie mit am Start ist, 'n bisschen Belichtung und 'n bisschen HDR und den Bildausschnitt vielleicht dynamisch zu wählen und keine Ahnung. Und das ist ja quasi auch schon mit AI entstanden, dieses Bild hätte ohne AI quasi so gar nicht existieren können, ja. Und da da wär jetzt meine Frage, wie viel muss da denn verfälscht sein, es quasi als Deep Fake deklarieren zu müssen? Aus Sicht 1 durchschnittlichen Verbrauchers. Also durch sich durchschnittlichen, der 1 durchsichtigen Verbrauchers, der sehr transparent ist. Ja. Das ist schwer zu beantworten. Das muss man im Einzelfall eben gucken. Also es kommt, ich glaube, es kommt sehr viel, das steht leider nicht so da, aber es kommt sehr viel auf diese Täuschungswirkung an. Wie, in welche Richtung kannst Du, würdest Du jemanden damit täuschen? Da das macht das natürlich alles scharf, aber rein von der Definition her ist es 'n Deepfake und dann muss man's eigentlich kennzeichnen, außer es gibt 2 Ausnahmen. Man ist macht das Ganze zur Aufdeckung, Verhütung, Ermittlung, Verfolgung von Straftaten. Natürlich. Und die Ausnahme Nummer 2 find ich auch sehr, bräuchten wir noch 'n bisschen mehr Text. Es geht, wenn Noch mehr Text. Ja, noch mehr Text leider. Wenn der Inhalt Teil 1 offensichtlich künstlichen, kreativen, satirischen oder fiktionalen Werks oder Programms ist, dann muss man's nicht ganz offen kennzeichnen, sondern es genügt ein angemessener Hinweis, der die Darstellung den Genuss nicht beeinträchtigt. Also man muss es trotzdem hinweisen, aber halt nicht so, dass man das Werk nicht ordentlich konsumieren kann. Also es kommt ja auch an 'n paar sehen. Fotoalbum mach mit 100 lustigen Richard Bildern. Reicht das, wenn ich am Anfang oder am Ende einmal sag, das ist übrigens mein Richard AI Fotoalbum und dann muss es nicht auf jedes Bild draufkleben. Ich vermute ja. Ja, das würde reichen. Okay. Okay. Oder Du übertreibst die Darstellung immer so, dass es ganz klar ist, das ist gar nicht echt. Oh, das, also ja, ich versteh, was Du meinst, weil dann muss jedem klar sein, das kann nur mit AI entstanden sein. Aber da, also da zweifel ich zu sehr an den Menschen, mir irgendwie vorzustellen, was was wär allen sofort klar, ja? Mhm. Oder Sicherheit auf dem Mond beispielsweise würde dir wahrscheinlich jetzt niemand so wirklich abnehmen. Du mich 20, 30 Jahre älter warst, wer weiß. Aber noch witzige Sache ist, das gilt ja nur für KI. Wenn Du das mit Photoshop machst, gilt die KI Verordnung gar nicht mehr. Das heißt, Du könntest mir sonen Breos anziehen, wie Du willst. Diese Transparenzpflicht gilt nur für mit KI modifizierten Bilder. Und im Zweifelsfall müsstest Du mir nachweisen, dass ich das mit KI gemacht hab und nicht mit Photoshop dir selber aufn Kopf gesetzt hab. Wenn ich das über diesen Gehweg gehen wollte und nicht über Persönlichkeitsrechte, ja. Ja. Aber Du würdest ja tatsächlich eher aus Persönlichkeitsrechten oder aber sogar, je nach der Schärfe, auch aus strafrechtlichen Vorschriften vorgehen, ne. Verletzung der Ehre oder was? Verletzung der Ehre. Dann gibt's auch im Kunst Urhebergesetz gibt's auch noch eine Strafvorschrift. Ich glaube, also ne, wenn's 'n Bildnis ist. Richtig. Also da gibt's diverse Möglichkeiten. Müssten die Strafverfolgungsbehörden dann natürlich entsprechend tätig werden, aber per se gibt's durchaus da mehrere Möglichkeiten. Interessant zu Deep Fake fand ich auch noch, Texte sind ja nicht in der Auflistung gewesen, Bild, Ton oder Video stand drin. Texte können kein Deep Fake sein. Also mit Texten kann ich theoretisch generieren lassen, ne, 'n Brief, als ob jemand was geschrieben hat oder so. Ja, aber wahrscheinlich, weil ich das vorher auch schon könnte und KI da überhaupt keinen Unterschied macht. Also wenn ich jetzt in mein Dokument schreib, Richard hat gesagt, Jan ist doof, ob ich das von Hand schreib oder mit der KI mach, das macht's mir weder einfacher noch unscheinbarer. Also da ist einfach überhaupt kein Unterschied zu vorher ersichtlich. Wobei es ja auch eine Vorschrift gibt für Textmanipulation zu. Genau. Ja, ach, okay. Ja, genau. Aber Aber es ist zwar kein Deepfake. Es ist kein Deepfake, das heißt, dies alles, was wir mit Ausnahmen und Kennzeichen so gesprochen haben, das ist nicht der Fall, weil bei Deepfake geht's ja darum, ist es möglichst realistisch, dass man's glauben kann, wenn man das sieht? Bei Text fällt einem das natürlich schwer, die Authentizität von bestimmten Wortnutzungen oder so. Nee, das natürlich nicht. Also haben sie was anderes geschrieben und gesagt, wenn der Zweck des Textes, ne, die Öffentlichkeit über Angelegenheiten von öffentlichem Interesse zu informieren ist, dann muss man das kennzeichnen. Also es geht in eine ganz andere Richtung. Und ich find das schon ziemlich relevant, a, wie kann Presse jetzt mit KI arbeiten oder wie ordnungsgemäß gehen sie damit Wie viel ist ihnen die Qualität dann auch wichtig? Und Texte wär auch son Thema für Social Media Bots oder Phishingangriffe oder, okay, die werden sich an gar nix halten. Aber Social Media Bots, ist das zulässig, wenn ich mir, wie viel 1000 Follower willst Du für programmierbar haben? Also ja, dann, ja. Okay, spannende Diskussion zu Deep Facts. Ich hab noch am Ende immer eine letzte Frage für Peggy. Welche Frage haben wir dir nicht gestellt? Auf welches Thema hast Du dich vorbereitet und hast gesagt, das wär superspannend und da müssen wir unbedingt drüber reden. Und jetzt hat der Jan mich gar nicht gefragt. Ich wollte unbedingt noch über Thema x y sprechen. Gibt's was, was wir vergessen haben? Ich würde sagen, wir haben in dieser kurz Kürze der Zeit eigentlich 'n ganz guten Ritt durch die durch die aktuellen Problemen- und Minenfelder getan. Ich wüsste jetzt nicht, ja, aus meiner Sicht fehlt nix. Ich hab noch eine wichtige Frage. Ja? Ich als User von KI hör jetzt alles in dieser blöden Podcastfolge, was ich nicht mehr darf oder worauf ich achten muss. Ab wann gilt das Ganze denn für mich? Mhm. Die also die Deep Fake Regelungen, die gelten erst ab 20 26 und alle urheberrechtlichen Bestimmungen und was wir vorher noch hatten, Persönlichkeitsrechte und so weiter, das sind natürlich bestehende Regelungen, die auch heute schon angewendet werden können. Aber diese kennen, was wir gar nicht bisher erwähnt hatten, vielleicht noch einen Punkt, ist, dass auch die Anbieter von von KI Systemen zukünftig diese Deepfakes markieren müssen, ja, also in welcher Form das geschehen wird. Ah, das ist Weißt man aktuell, wenn man da immer dieser Google Germany Kristall da mit drin ist? Jein. Sie müssen's nicht so visuell machen wie Du als User, sondern sie müssen das auch digital machen. Die haben eine Cindh ID heißt das, hast Du ja schon gehört. Ja, ja. Ja. Das ist in jedem Werk enthalten, dass man's einfach nachvollziehen kann. Okay. Genau, also kann auch in den Metadaten passieren, ne, aber einfach, es muss ab 20 26 gekennzeichnet werden, ohnehin durch die Anbieter der KI Systeme. Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wenn man Systeme. Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wie sich das dann in der Praxis darstellt. Für für Bilder und Videos oder für alles? Ich hab verstanden für alles und ich hab mich echt gefragt, wie soll der Text? Ja. Das wär jetzt nämlich auch meine Frage gewesen. Ich weiß. Der Text hat keine Metadaten. Aber okay, müssen wir mal das nächste Mal, wenn wir mit 'nem Anbieter von KI Systemen reden, dann noch mal nachfragen. Genau. So wie bei DeepL, wo man dann, wenn man was automatisch übersetzt, ja, dann kriegt man ja auch unten immer diesen kleinen Hinweis übersetzt mit DeepL, ja. Ja, das ist Und den löscht man dann raus und dann Genau, also es gibt ja Leute, die sich 'n Geschäftsmodell daraus gemacht haben, ne, KI generierte Texte zu erkennen und so was alles, Plakatsoftware an Unis und Die werd's einfach haben, ne. Gesehen. Ja, ja, das ist die Frage, ob die's dann wirklich so einfach haben oder nicht. Aber wie gesagt, das ist dann 'n Thema für eine andere Folge. Irgendwann in 20 26, wenn das da ist und wir das uns angucken können. Okay, bevor wir uns aber hier alle verabschieden, haben wir noch und ich hab von Richard gehört, dass er auf jeden Fall was am Start hat. Deswegen darf Richard anfangen. Pick of the day. Ja, bei mir kam gestern was ganz Tolles an und ich konnte es leider nicht mal aufschlagen und zwar das Sonderheft der Make 20 25 mit Ikea Hacks über Möbeltuning und wie man Sachen smart und toll macht und noch besser und viel Spaß dabei hat. Das wär mein, ohne zu wissen, was drinsteht, aber ich bin sehr gehypt. Blanko Pick of the day. Den Blanko Pick of the day, ja, viel Spaß. Musst Du auf jeden Fall mal mitbringen. Ich hab ja auch das ein oder andere IKEA Möbelstück zu Hause stehen und vielleicht kann ich da noch Die Möbel passe alle in meinem Opel Adam rein, das wird kein Problem. Nein, ich mein, das ist nicht unbedingt von den Möbeln, ich dachte, kannst Du einfach den Make mitbringen und das zeigen. Das nicht dein Hausstand durch die Gegend fahren, Richard. Wunderbar. Dann von Richard einmal die Make. Peggy, hast Du was für uns dabei? Ihr überfahrt mich 'n bisschen mit dieser Frage, aber mein wäre etwas zum Lesen, und zwar ein Buch, ein wunderbares Buch, was ich grade gelesen hab von Christoph Heim, das Narrenschiff. Und zwar erzählt es die Geschichte der DDR aus der Perspektive der politisch, Gründung bis bis Mauerfall, sehr spannendes Buch und für mich insbesondere, weil ich ja da auch gebürtig bin. Deshalb klare Leseempfehlung. Ist das so, ich glaub, das ist son relativ neues Genre, ne, so im Prinzip. Also ist das eine eine reelle Biografie oder ist das ein Roman? Ist 'n Roman. Okay. Bei alternativ denke ich immer direkt an alternative Fakten, ja. Also ich, es ist, glaube ich, tatsächlich sehr faktenbasiert, aber natürlich in Romanform eingebunden. Ja, also das ist vielleicht doch genau das, was ich meine, das ist son Genre, was ich vor 'n paar Jahren so für mich entdeckt hab. Ich hab da schon so superviele Bücher gelesen, so. 1 der letzten, was ich gelesen hab, war so die die Mondlandung aus Perspektive 1 NASA Ingenieurs, der den's halt nie gab oder so, ja, aber alles, was halt so ihn herum passiert, halt 100 Prozent real und das hätte im Prinzip alles so passieren können, das ist einfach, ich sag mal, 'n etwas unterhaltsamerer Weg, reale Geschichte irgendwie einfach darzustellen, ne. Das liest sich immer ganz bequem. Und ich weiß nicht, wer auf Apple TV, oh Gott, wie heißt das? Raumfahrtserie Apple TV Richard. The Expanse. Nein, die andere. Die finde ich aber gut. Ja, die ist auch gut, aber ich meinte die andere. Beyond, nein, heißt sie und die fangen ja auch an so mit, ne, wie war das Wettrennen zum Mond und so. Und das läuft einfach so ein, 2 Sachen anders als eine Möglichkeit, aber ist halt alles sehr so groundingd in History irgendwie. Ja. Oder andersrum, ich nehm das jetzt einfach als Pick. So, das ist jetzt voll bekannt. Und Peggy hat mich darauf gemacht, Apple TV, abgefahrene Serie, das, wie gesagt, startet mit dem Rennen zum Mond und in der ersten Folge, das so viel kann man, glaube ich, spoilern, schaffen es, schafft die Sowjetunion es quasi als Erstes auf dem Mond und der Rest der Staffel geht dann eigentlich nur darum so, wie hat sich das Mondprogramm der NASA anders entwickelt aufgrund von, eine Sache ist halt irgendwie anders gelaufen, als sie wirklich gelaufen ist, und das bringt dann son Stein ins Rollen. Es ist alles nicht abgefahren, ist Science Fiction, es ist alles, hätte so passieren können, aber ist einfach nur son interessanter Take von, was, wenn ein, 2 Sachen in der Geschichte anders gelaufen wären und was hätte das für Einflüsse alles haben können, so. Ganz interessant, kann man sich mal antun auf Apple TV, for All Men. Kein, mittlerweile, glaub ich, schon, weiß nicht, 5 oder 6 Staffeln oder so richtig gut. Wunderbar. Dann sind wir durch mit unserer Folge zu AI und Rechten. Erst mal danke Richard, dass Du wieder mit am Start warst. Dankeschön. Und natürlich danke Peggy, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast für uns hier, Rede und Antwort zu stehen über Deep Fakes, über KI Modelle, über Rechte und Pflichten von Anbietern und Kunden. Und wir hoffen, das hat euch da draußen mindestens genauso viel Spaß gemacht wie uns hier und euch im Idealfall noch viel weitergebracht und vielleicht ein, 2 Schritte weiter und näher zu eurem KI Produkt, an dem ihr grade grade arbeitet oder über das ihr grade nachdenkt. Falls ihr Fragen, Anregungen, Kritik, Feedback habt, dann könnt ihr gerne euch auf unserem Discord Server melden. Ihr könnt uns auf Social Media erreichen. Ihr könnt uns Kommentare schreiben auf LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter gibt's nicht mehr, aber Blues Guy und Masolon gibt's noch. Ihr könnt es gerne schreiben oder ihr schreibt uns die E-Mail an Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar und damit verabschieden wir uns und hören uns in 2 Wochen wieder. Bis dann. Ciao, tschau. Tschüs.",0.99658203,[200,208,211,215,219,223,225,229,234,239,244,248,251,254,259,263,267,270,274,279,282,285,288,291,294,298,300,304,307,310,315,318,322,325,328,333,336,340,342,347,351,355,360,364,367,371,374,377,380,384,389,396,400,404,410,414,418,421,426,430,433,435,440,443,446,449,454,461,464,469,473,476,480,484,488,491,495,500,505,510,513,516,520,523,527,533,538,542,546,550,555,559,562,567,571,575,577,581,587,593,596,599,603,607,610,613,617,620,623,626,629,632,635,639,642,646,651,655,658,660,662,665,667,670,675,679,681,683,688,692,696,700,702,706,709,714,719,722,724,728,733,737,739,742,745,747,749,751,754,758,763,767,770,772,775,778,783,786,791,795,797,799,801,803,805,807,812,816,818,821,826,830,835,837,840,842,846,848,850,854,860,864,866,868,870,872,877,881,885,889,892,895,897,899,903,906,909,911,913,915,920,924,929,935,938,940,943,948,951,954,956,961,964,966,970,975,980,984,991,995,997,1000,1005,1007,1010,1012,1014,1019,1023,1026,1029,1033,1039,1043,1045,1047,1050,1053,1057,1060,1062,1066,1071,1074,1077,1079,1082,1085,1089,1092,1096,1101,1106,1110,1113,1118,1123,1127,1130,1136,1141,1145,1148,1154,1157,1159,1164,1169,1172,1174,1178,1182,1184,1187,1191,1196,1202,1205,1207,1212,1216,1219,1222,1224,1226,1229,1233,1236,1243,1246,1250,1253,1255,1259,1262,1264,1266,1268,1272,1277,1279,1283,1285,1289,1292,1295,1297,1299,1303,1306,1308,1311,1313,1319,1322,1325,1327,1330,1333,1336,1339,1343,1347,1349,1351,1355,1358,1361,1365,1367,1370,1374,1379,1385,1390,1394,1400,1404,1408,1411,1413,1417,1420,1423,1425,1428,1433,1436,1439,1442,1444,1446,1449,1454,1458,1461,1463,1466,1471,1473,1476,1480,1485,1488,1491,1494,1498,1502,1506,1510,1513,1515,1518,1521,1524,1528,1533,1536,1540,1544,1546,1549,1554,1558,1563,1565,1567,1569,1571,1574,1577,1579,1582,1586,1589,1593,1596,1600,1602,1605,1608,1612,1614,1617,1619,1622,1624,1627,1629,1633,1636,1639,1643,1645,1649,1653,1656,1658,1661,1667,1671,1675,1677,1680,1683,1685,1689,1692,1694,1698,1703,1708,1710,1713,1716,1718,1720,1724,1727,1729,1732,1735,1738,1740,1743,1746,1748,1750,1753,1756,1758,1760,1762,1764,1766,1769,1772,1774,1776,1778,1780,1783,1787,1790,1793,1798,1802,1806,1809,1811,1815,1820,1824,1827,1830,1833,1835,1838,1842,1845,1848,1852,1855,1857,1862,1864,1866,1869,1873,1875,1878,1880,1885,1888,1892,1895,1898,1900,1903,1908,1911,1913,1915,1917,1919,1922,1924,1927,1929,1933,1937,1941,1944,1946,1950,1952,1955,1957,1961,1965,1968,1970,1974,1977,1979,1983,1988,1991,1994,1996,1999,2001,2003,2005,2008,2012,2015,2017,2022,2025,2028,2030,2033,2036,2038,2042,2047,2051,2054,2056,2058,2060,2064,2069,2071,2076,2080,2083,2087,2091,2094,2096,2098,2101,2103,2106,2108,2112,2116,2119,2121,2124,2126,2131,2133,2138,2141,2144,2146,2152,2155,2160,2163,2165,2168,2170,2173,2178,2182,2184,2186,2189,2192,2194,2198,2201,2203,2207,2210,2214,2216,2220,2224,2228,2234,2236,2239,2241,2243,2247,2250,2254,2260,2263,2268,2271,2275,2277,2280,2282,2285,2287,2289,2291,2295,2297,2299,2301,2305,2307,2311,2315,2320,2323,2326,2329,2331,2334,2336,2339,2343,2347,2349,2351,2354,2358,2363,2368,2370,2372,2376,2380,2384,2388,2393,2397,2400,2403,2408,2412,2415,2419,2423,2425,2427,2429,2431,2434,2436,2438,2440,2442,2446,2453,2456,2460,2462,2466,2469,2471,2475,2478,2481,2483,2489,2493,2498,2501,2504,2506,2510,2516,2522,2527,2530,2532,2534,2536,2538,2540,2542,2547,2550,2553,2556,2558,2563,2566,2568,2570,2572,2574,2577,2580,2583,2585,2589,2593,2595,2598,2602,2605,2607,2610,2613,2620,2623,2625,2627,2630,2634,2639,2644,2648,2650,2654,2658,2662,2665,2668,2670,2672,2675,2677,2681,2684,2686,2691,2693,2695,2699,2702,2704,2708,2711,2716,2718,2720,2722,2724,2729,2734,2737,2739,2741,2746,2749,2751,2753,2758,2761,2763,2769,2772,2775,2779,2784,2790,2795,2798,2800,2805,2809,2812,2817,2821,2823,2825,2828,2830,2834,2837,2839,2841,2843,2847,2849,2851,2855,2858,2860,2862,2865,2867,2871,2873,2875,2877,2879,2882,2886,2888,2890,2893,2895,2897,2901,2904,2907,2910,2913,2916,2918,2921,2923,2925,2928,2931,2937,2939,2941,2945,2947,2949,2952,2954,2956,2958,2961,2964,2967,2974,2978,2981,2984,2986,2989,2991,2994,3000,3005,3008,3013,3015,3020,3022,3026,3030,3033,3036,3042,3045,3047,3050,3053,3057,3059,3063,3069,3072,3077,3082,3085,3087,3090,3095,3098,3101,3105,3107,3109,3111,3113,3115,3118,3120,3122,3125,3129,3132,3136,3140,3143,3145,3149,3151,3155,3157,3159,3162,3165,3170,3173,3175,3177,3179,3182,3185,3187,3191,3193,3196,3198,3201,3207,3211,3215,3217,3222,3225,3227,3230,3232,3234,3239,3243,3247,3250,3252,3255,3257,3261,3263,3265,3267,3269,3271,3275,3279,3282,3284,3286,3288,3290,3293,3296,3298,3300,3303,3307,3309,3311,3313,3315,3317,3319,3324,3330,3335,3337,3339,3341,3343,3346,3349,3353,3355,3357,3361,3363,3367,3372,3374,3377,3379,3382,3384,3388,3390,3395,3397,3399,3404,3408,3411,3413,3418,3420,3422,3425,3429,3433,3439,3442,3445,3447,3449,3451,3454,3457,3459,3462,3464,3468,3470,3472,3475,3479,3481,3483,3485,3487,3489,3494,3499,3501,3503,3507,3513,3517,3519,3521,3523,3527,3530,3533,3535,3537,3539,3541,3546,3549,3553,3557,3561,3564,3567,3570,3572,3574,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0: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu 1 neuen Deep Dive Folge hier in der Programmierbar, für euch im Studio wie immer hier der Jan am Start und ich bin nicht alleine. Ich hab nämlich hier doch den Richard zu Gast.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo Richard.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hallo. Richard, die Leute kennen dich schon aus Podcastfolgenummer.\n\nSpeaker 1: Schieß mich tot.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nein, das ist knapp daneben, es war die 160, ich hab aber nachgeholt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, sehr gut.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab mir das auch nicht auswendig gewusst. Gewusst. Wir haben mit dir damals über Datenschutz, DSGVO und so was gesprochen, weil ich sage, wir, meine ich Dennis. Mhm. Ja.\n\nUnd die vertrauten Hörerinnen da draußen ahnen schon, wenn Richard wieder dabei ist, geht's wieder ein rechtliches Thema. Richard, über was wollen wir heute sprechen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Heute geht's über KI. Das ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist das 'n rechtliches Thema?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, leider ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ah, okay. Ja, und damit wir nicht damit alleine auf weiter Flur sind, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen. Wir haben heute zu Gast im Studio Peggy Müller. Hallo Peggy, schön, dass Du da bist und Zeit für uns hast.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hallo, freu mich sehr über die Einladung. Vielen Dank.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir freuen uns, dass Du die Einladung angenommen hast. Du bist Anwältin bei Advant BYTON und über die Firma sozusagen zu uns gekommen, Richard, nicht wahr?\n\nSpeaker 1: Über Lotrum, genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wunderbar. Peggy, was machst Du, wenn Du nicht im Podcaststudio sitzt den ganzen Tag?\n\nSpeaker 2: Dann sitz ich in meinem tollen Büro in der Frankfurter Innenstadt und beschäftige mich hauptsächlich mit Fragen des gewerblichen Rechtsschutzes oder besser gesagt IP Recht. Das beinhaltet Urheberrechte, Markenrechte auch mal Designrechte und auch KI Lösungen, KI Fragen und inzwischen auch 'n Großteil IT Sicherheit, Fragen zu NIS 2, falls euch das was sagt und ähnliche Abkürzungen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab mir vor dieser Folge mal den Spaß gemacht, auf LinkedIn zu schauen, wer von den ganzen Leuten, die damals mit mir Rechtswissenschaft studiert haben, was die so alles machen mittlerweile und da war eine ganz große Bandbreite dabei von Immobilien, Arbeitsrecht, Umwelt, Presse, internationales Handelsrecht, maritiimes Recht war auch dabei, fand ich auch irgendwie superspannend. So, also Leute sind sehr breit aufgestellt. Was hat dich dazu gebracht, genau diesen Bereich auszusuchen, wenn es offensichtlich son riesen weites Feld ist, aus dem man wählen kann?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also im Studium hatt ich tatsächlich keine Berührungspunkte damit. Ich hab mir aber direkt nach dem ersten Staatsexamen die Frage gestellt oder ich wollte promovieren und dann hab ich mir son bisschen die Professoren bei uns an der Uni angeschaut und hab da einfach, ich werd mal ich werd mal vorstellig bei dem Professor Fehlsser seiner Zeit und da bin ich hin, hatte mir 'n Thema ausgesucht und prompt bin ich da gelandet und so bin ich dann auch diesem Thema, was mich dann so reingezogen hat, auch treu geblieben, ja? Das ist 'n überschaubarer Bereich, ja? Also ich hab tatsächlich eine Ausbildung bei der Steuerberater gemacht und Steuerrecht war immer so 'n Thema, wo ich dachte, oh Gott, das sind so viele Fallstricke, da kann man einfach so viel daneben tappen und falsch machen. Dann bin ich soeben tatsächlich beim gewerblichen Rechtsschutz gelandet, hab dann ja auch im Referendariat mit dem treu geblieben und hab dann in so 'ner kleinen IP Boutique angefangen und dann ganz lange bei Nintendo gearbeitet.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was macht man da bei Nintendo?\n\nSpeaker 2: In der Rechtsabteilung, unter anderem die ja also wir haben Nintendo hat relativ viele Rechtsstreitigkeiten geführt in dem Bereich, also ja, alles vertraulich, aber unter anderem Designstreitigkeiten, auch Patentstreitigkeiten und die betreut die Rechtsabteilung intern, eben zu schauen, was gibt's für Auswirkungen für den Fall des Urteile eben zulasten des Unternehmens ausgehen? Was muss da im Vorfeld eventuell implementiert werden? Und genau, da gucken wir und was natürlich auch viel gemacht wird, ist im Vorfeld die die Spiele, neue Designs, das läuft ganz viel durch die Rechtsabteilung, ja? Wenn's da Fragen gibt zu, beispielsweise darf man in 'nem Mario Kart Spiel zum Beispiel über den Luffel drüberfahren und Ähnliches, ja? Also das sind so Fragen, die dann auf dem Schreibtisch\n\nSpeaker 1: Spannend. Ich würd da hätten\n\nSpeaker 0: wir auch noch Folge drüber machen können, was Aber wir wollen ja eigentlich Text. Immer gerne. Aber wir wollen ja heute eigentlich über AI reden und deshalb meine Einstiegsfrage zum Thema AI an euch beide und Peggy darf anfangen. Hat AI dein Leben leichter oder schwerer gemacht?\n\nSpeaker 2: Puh, was für eine Einstiegsfrage. Also privat erleichtert mein Leben definitiv. Ich nutze es wirklich sehr viel für viele Anfragen, für viele Themen, wo ich mir 'n ersten Überblick verschaffen will, wo ich nicht so mitbewandert bin, ja, also einfach schnell 'n Überblick zu bekommen, ja, bei Reisebuchungen, mir da eine Reiserote raussuchen, ähnliches, also wirklich top. In unserem Kanzleialltag ist es natürlich 'n bisschen schwieriger, weil wir da noch aktuell in der Testphase sind bei vielen bei vielen Modellen und uns das noch genauer anschauen, was wir denn tatsächlich da implementieren. Also ich geh davon aus, dass wir da auch bald bald Tools in der Anwendung haben, die unser Leben auch da sehr erleichtern werden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Danke. Richard, wie sieht's in deinem Leben aus?\n\nSpeaker 1: Überwiegend leichter. Also Neugier zu stillen, immer jederzeit noch schneller auf Informationen, die so formatiert sind, ne, wie man's sammle zu kommen, mega. Und auch die Befähigung, die man hat. Also man kann so viel mehr machen. Ich als Nichtentwickler kann einfacher entwickeln, obwohl ich weiß, mein Code ist dann halt vielleicht Wegwerfcode.\n\nAber ich kann halt ausprobieren und schauen oder, ne, mir das erklären lassen. Das find ich großartig, aber es kommt natürlich mit Herausforderungen. Also Frustmomente gibt es sehr. Ich hadere auch noch ganz viel mit mit Stimme, dass das immer mit alles klar antwortet und dann der Rest kommt und dass das immer so freundschaftliche Vibes ausstattet, obwohl ich vielleicht einfach nur einen Rezept oder eine Checkliste haben will. Ja, das stört mich persönlich dann auch.\n\nAber ey, das sind Luxusthemen. Ich bin, ich finde, sehr viel einfacher.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und rein beruflich, durch die ganzen Themen, die Du jetzt damit aufm Schreibtisch hast, einfacher oder schwerer?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also rein beruflich, wenn ich jetzt gesamtheitlich betrachte, was die Chancen betrifft, immer noch sehr viel einfacher, aber ja, es kommt mit Herausforderungen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Zum Beispiel?\n\nSpeaker 1: Zum Beispiel, das die große Frage, die ich mir heute mitgebracht hab, ist so Transparenzpflichten. Wann ist etwas ein Deep Fake? Wann muss man es irgendwie kenntlich machen? Welche Ausnahmen gibt es da und so was in diese Richtung? Finde ich sehr spannend, weil ja, wir werden alle mit Channel arbeiten, ob's mit Bilderstellung, Texterstellung, ob man eine E-Mail schreibt, ob man, ne, irgendwelche Assets generiert oder ob man 'n Code damit schreibt.\n\nWas darf ich eigentlich damit und wann darf ich das? Sind sehr spannende Fragestellungen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir wollten uns ja diesem Thema widmen, weil das tatsächlich auch was ist, wofür wir immer mal wieder Zuschriften, Meldungen aus der Community und so weiter erhalten. Und das, was Du grade so als selbstverständlich im Prinzip schon so wieder geben hast, ja, wir arbeiten hier alle mit General und wir generieren hier Grafiken und Texte und da, das ist ja längst nicht in jeder Firma da draußen so oder in jedem Betrieb da draußen so. Was glaubst Du, macht das uns besonders einfach oder wieso können wir einfach so diese Tools nutzen? Oder sollten wir diese Tools vielleicht einfach so nutzen oder vielleicht auch nicht? Was sind so die Abwägungen, die man da treffen muss aus deiner Sicht?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also ich seh da 2 große Elemente. Erst mal, es ist eine Veränderung. Mit Veränderungen klarzukommen dauert Zeit. Also ich guck jetzt erst mal aufs Menschliche. Wenn ich etwas immer in einem in einem Weg gegangen bin, warum sollte ich's jetzt anders machen, wenn's doch schon gut funktioniert?\n\nUnd dann seh ich da erst mal keine Potenziale, sondern nur natürlich nur Anpassungen und das wird Fehler auslösen und so weiter. Und das ist unbequem. Und das Zweite ist auch, je nachdem, in welcher Branche man ist, ist man vielleicht risikoaverser oder risikoaffiner oder hat mehr Risiken oder hat halt weniger Risiken. Also ich würd nicht jedem empfehlen, sofort alles mit KI zu machen, nur weil's KI ist, aber ich seh das schon als einen technologischen Fortschritt, den niemand aufhalten kann und es wird alles viel mehr in diese Richtung gehen und diese Potenziale werden genutzt werden. Ja, und jetzt müssen wir aber irgendwie herausfinden, wann darf ich denn überhaupt was nutzen und was muss ich dabei beachten?\n\nSpeaker 0: Auf rausfinden. Peggy, wie sehr glüht bei euch das Telefon, weil die Leute anrufen und fragen, meine Mitarbeiter wollen hier dieses und jenes nutzen und dürfen die das überhaupt und muss ich mir jetzt Sorgen machen und womit kommen die Leute so zu euch?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also wir haben tatsächlich eine ganze Reihe an KI Anfragen. Überwiegend geht's den Einsatz von Chatbots auf Webseiten. Also das würd ich sagen, das ist so der Haupt 1 der Hauptanwendungsfälle, gibt aber auch tatsächlich, also wirklich die ganze Bandbreite, ne. Schulungen für Mitarbeiter bis hin zu KI Richtlinien über auch Transaktionen in dem Bereich, die Frage, welche Datensätze darf ich denn wie nutzen? Und also wirklich das ganze Bandbreite.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und muss ich mir das so vorstellen, dass die Leute wirklich proaktiv zurecht kommen und dann schon so fragen? Also hier, meine Mitarbeiter würden gerne, weiß nicht, benutzen und wir würden gerne mal abklären, wie das läuft. Oder kommen die meistens erst, wenn das Kind in den Brunnen gefallen ist und jetzt noch zu klären ist, wie schlimm ist der Schaden?\n\nSpeaker 2: Wir haben unsere Mandanten, glaub ich, ganz gut erzogen. Erzogen. Genauso. Die die meisten Mandanten, die wir haben, sind ja tatsächlich Unternehmen, ja, sodass wir natürlich 'n Großteil mit Rechtsabteilungen zusammenarbeiten oder ich sag mal so Geschäftsführerebene Und die wissen die Problematiken und die kommen in der Regel frühzeitig. Möglicherweise auch aus den Erfahrungen, die man so mit der DSGVO gemacht hat, ja, wo alle sich eigentlich, glaub ich, 'n bisschen zu spät drum gekümmert haben und dann die Panik groß war.\n\nDeshalb haben wir überwiegend wenig aus dem Brunnen zu holen, sondern sind mehr an der präventiven Front unterwegs.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und wenn ihr mit euren Mandanten darüber sprecht, wie KI einzuführen ist und wir das begleiten könnt, ist da dein Eindruck oder hast Du da Einsicht von, ob das mehr so ein top down oder son Bottom up Prozess ist? Also ist das was, wo die Geschäftsführung ankommt und sagt, okay, wir wir wollen uns jetzt, wir machen jetzt auch KI. So, alle da draußen machen KI, wir machen jetzt auch KI oder ist das mehr so aus einzelnen Abteilungen oder von Mitarbeitern getrieben?\n\nSpeaker 2: Es gibt beides. Ich würde schon sagen, dass die Geschäftsleitung sich natürlich möglicherweise auch aufgrund der eigenen Nutzung der KI Tools darüber in der Gefahr ist, dass man's eben nicht vermeiden kann. Viele sind ja auch proaktiv unterwegs und unterstützen das und fragen sich dann eben, was muss ich genau tun, das eben rechtssicher zu einzusetzen?\n\nSpeaker 0: Und gibt es da so die Standard 1, 2, 3 Fallstricke, über die die meisten stolpern oder den den Standardrat, den ihr den allermeisten da schon mitgeben könnt an der Stelle?\n\nSpeaker 2: Der Standardrat würde ich sagen, frühzeitig damit beschäftigen und auch die Mitarbeiter frühzeitig schulen und nicht nicht zu lange warten, sondern es als ein Fakt ansehen. Ich hab irgendwo mal gehört, KI ist gekommen, zu bleiben und das seh ich genauso. Das wird nicht weggehen, nur weil man sich jetzt wegduckt und als Unternehmen sich nicht darum kümmert, sondern es ist sicherer aus unserer Perspektive zu sagen, gut, wir müssen uns dem stellen und wir gucken, was sind die Maßnahmen, die eben dafür erforderlich sind?\n\nSpeaker 0: Und mit welchen, ich weiß nicht, ob Sorgen das das richtige Wort ist, das klingt ja schon so negativ, aber aus welcher Perspektive vielleicht kommen die meisten eurer Mandanten dann auf euch zu? Ist das eher so, ich sag mal, Anbieter facing Datenschutz mit, oh, diese ganzen KI Anbieter, die sitzen ja in den USA und dann gehen da meine Daten hin und was muss da irgendwie beachten? Oder sind das eher so Fragen des Urheberrechts, weil meine Mitarbeiter erzeugen jetzt unsere ganzen Katalogbilder nur noch mit ChatGPT und können und dürfen wir das überhaupt? Oder sind das eher Fragen, weil sie vielleicht selber KI Modelle betreiben, trainieren, feintunen, wie auch immer wollen und dann fragen, woher kommen wir an die Daten und was dürfen wir damit machen und so? Also, was ist da so die der Winkel da drauf?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also eine meiner ersten KI Anfragen war tatsächlich von Richard und zwar zum\n\nSpeaker 0: Der Lotung wieder ganz vorne mit dabei, muss man jetzt einfach\n\nSpeaker 2: Ganz vorne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Was hab ich denn gefunden?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ganz vorne mit dabei. Ihr habt damals gefragt, inwieweit das möglich ist, eben Rätsel auch mithilfe von KI zu generieren und die Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss und wo da die Fallstricke sind und ob man gegebenenfalls in die Haftung kommt und so weiter, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, wieder Fragen oder Bilderwetzelt oder was war das? Keine Ahnung von Reden.\n\nSpeaker 2: Fragen, Kindergarten. Nee, redtexturra.\n\nSpeaker 1: Es ging\n\nSpeaker 2: nicht Bilder.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, es\n\nSpeaker 2: ging nicht Bilder, sondern es ging tatsächlich Fragen und die entsprechenden Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss, ob ob die Antworten richtig sind, was denn passiert, wenn die Antworten eventuell falsch sind und und und.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist ja ein guter, ich jetzt kann's Richard fragen, wo wir damals aufgepasst hat. Richard, wie ist es denn, wenn Du jetzt so Fragen generieren lassen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich glaube, es ging, wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, jetzt kommt's wieder, danke, User generated content, also Spieler*innen sollten in der Lage sein, Thema anzugeben und zu ihrem Thema sollten dann Fragen generiert werden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich erinner mich.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber das Problem sind natürlich Halluzinationen. Was, wenn's nicht korrekt ist? Was, wenn da anderes Zeug rauskommt, was man nicht haben will? Muss man das kennzeichnen? Wie kann man das kennzeichnen?\n\nAlso all diese Fragen, glaub ich, waren so die ersten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, aber dann lass uns doch bei dem Beispiel bleiben. Also wir haben jetzt hier eine nicht Quizplanet genannte generische Quiz App, sagen wir mal, die wir bauen wollen würden. Und ich will mir jetzt 1000 Fragen dafür generieren lassen, weil ich zu faul bin, sie selber zu schreiben und ich würd das gerne automatisieren. Erst mal, darf ich das? So, ich ich frag so als als ganz einfache Laie so, kann ich mir mit AI Content generieren lassen und dann dafür Geld verlangen, auch wenn ich da gar nicht selber Arbeit reingesteckt hab?\n\nKann kann ich da trotzdem mitmachen, was ich will?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mir fällt nichts Entgegensprechendes für diesen Use Case ein. Es gibt natürlich andere Problemfelder, die grundsätzlich untersagt sind, mit KI zu machen. Also wenn's Fragen geht, glaub ich, ist weniger ein Problem. Wenn's irgendwie Emotionserkennung, Gesichtserkennung, mir fällt jetzt nicht alle alles, was man da fragt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, ich meine tatsächlich so jetzt auf reiner Content eben, ne, weil immerhin ist da jetzt, weiß ich nicht, ChatGPT hat mir 1000 Quizfragen erstellt und jetzt könnte er morgen OpenAI bei mir anklopfen und sagen so, sind ja meine Quizfragen, die hat ja meinen ChanningPity für mich erstellt. Gib mir mal bitte hier deinen deinen Gewinn von deiner App irgendwie ab.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich glaube, das kann nicht passieren. Das das ist, also der erste Schritt ist natürlich die Vereinbarung, was ist Teil der Leistung mit dem Anbieter, mit 'nem KI Anbieter, ne. Und da wär vielleicht im Vornherein wichtig, man nimmt nicht das kostenlose persönliche, den persönlichen Zugang. Also ich will für Allgemeine jetzt nicht nur auf einen Anbieter, weil da oft andere Konditionen drin sind, ne. Also wenn man den bezahlten Dienst macht, da muss man natürlich in die Details gucken, das kann man jetzt pauschal nicht beantworten, dann hat man da eine Sicherheit, dass nichts mit den eigenen Daten trainiert wird, was für viele wichtig ist, wenn man da doch irgendwelche Unternehmen eine Geheimnisse oder so was preisgeben will.\n\nDas wär schon in 'ner ersten Stelle sehr wichtig, ohne dass wir überhaupt in Datenschutz, KI Verordnung, Urheberrecht IP insgesamt irgendwie reinrutschen. Und auf jeden Fall ein sehr wichtiger Tipp, wenn man das in egal welcher Form machen will.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist vielleicht generell 'n guter Tipp. So AGBs lesen von den Diensten, die man irgendwie nutzt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Wird oft nicht gemacht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wird oft nicht gemacht.\n\nSpeaker 2: Also schadet nicht, das zu wiederholen, diesen Tipp.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist richtig. Okay, jetzt hab ich also meine 1000 Fragen und jetzt, weil KI natürlich nicht perfekt ist, sind von den 1000 Fragen 200 falsch. Bin ich da, Peggy, irgendwie haftbar zu machen, wenn meine Quiz App jetzt da draußen in der Welt ist und behauptet, der Zweite Weltkrieg hat in den Siebzigerjahren stattgefunden?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also Du könntest in dem Fall deinen App, deinen Käufern, wenn's bezahlter Content ist, ja, könntest Du gegenüber haftbar sein aufgrund der vertraglichen Pflichtverletzungen, ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: weil\n\nSpeaker 2: Du lieferst eine App, die einfach nur Mist erzählt, ja, oder falsche Antworten gibt, ja, dann ist die Frage, ne, Du willst ja eine App haben, die funktioniert und die dich auch inhaltlich weiterbringt oder die, die dir zumindest dich zum Denken anregt und und Du dann auch am Ergebnis die richtige Antwort zu, dass ich mir da vorstellen könnte, dass man tatsächlich hier das als mangelhaftes Produkt ansehen würde, wo Du unter Umständen die Möglichkeit hast, den Kaufpreis so es den einen gibt, zurückzuverlangen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und ich kann mich als App Macher an der Stelle nicht darauf berufen, dass er mein, also mein AI Anbieter ja auch eine Fürsorgepflicht hat, dafür zu sorgen, dass das alles richtig ist und ich mich einfach blind auf den verlassen hab, sondern ich muss da selber schon auch noch mal eine gewisse, Sind wir wieder bei den AGBs, die man lesen muss.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Auf die eigenen AGBs, die man schreiben muss.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, die kommen auch noch dazu. Weiß dich ja auch drauf hin, dass eben Fehler passieren können, ja, und dass Du doch bitte selbst noch mal die Überprüfung vornimmst, ob dieser Content denn zutrifft oder nicht, ja, sodass die Verantwortung da tatsächlich bei dir liegt. Also dass Du, man kann natürlich mal drüber nachdenken, ob's dann irgendwelche Ansprüche dir gegenüber dem dem Anbieter des, nehmen wir Open AI oder 'n anderes Large Language Models geben könnte. Ja, kommt dann eben auch wieder auf den Vertrag drauf an, den Du mit denen geschlossen hast, ne. Also kritisch wird's aus meiner Sicht am ehesten dann, wenn wenn wir jetzt Beispiel nehmen, was Richard grade erwähnte, dass Du dass Du sagst, ich möchte ausschließen, dass Daten, beispielsweise Daten der Nutzer zum Training benutzt werden, uns passiert dann doch, dann bist Du als datenschutzrechtlich Verantwortlicher ja gegenüber deinen Nutzern verantwortlich.\n\nHast aber dann hast aber dann eben die Problematik, ne, es ist trainiert. Also sprich, es gibt dann irgendwo 'n Löschungsanspruch und da müsste man sich mal überlegen, ob man das weiterreichen könnte.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hätt da noch was zu ergänzen. Also eben ganz wichtig, was verspricht man selber den Usern? Was steht in den Eigendefinitionen der Leistung, die man erbringen wird? Also auch da wieder AGB oder halt im im Programm, in der Software selber nicht mal das, wenn man von sich gibt, bei uns gibt es 100 Prozent richtige Quizfragen, alle geprüft, dann ist man natürlich, hat man 'n Problem. Aber wenn man offen tut, hey, wir haben hier eine tolle Sache, Du kannst deine eigenen Quizfragen generieren lassen mit 1 KI, Achtung, es ist eine KI, es kann natürlich Ungenauigkeiten beinhalten, aber Du kannst trotzdem mehr mit Spaß haben und meistens ist richtig, das muss man nicht dazuschreiben, aber dann ist es ja okay.\n\nJa, da hat man dieses Risiko mitigiert.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Mhm. Aber also, das sind ja 2 unterschiedliche Fälle, die Du gerade beschrieben hast. Ne, das eine ist, ich nutze KI selber, mein Produkt zu entwickeln, aufzufüllen, weiterzubauen, wie auch immer. Und das andere ist ja, ich biete selber irgend eine Art von KI Feature meinen eigenen Usern an, wo ich ja dann quasi der der Anbieter auch auch werde, ja.\n\nUnd jetzt ist natürlich dieser dieser Punkt, wo Du gedacht hast, ne, also Du generierst ja eigene Quizzes oder keine Ahnung, ich ich biete so einen KI Bildgenerator an oder 'n Chatbot für andere, den sie auf ihrer Webseite dann anbinden können. Das macht es mir ja eigentlich unmöglich zu kontrollieren, was meine KI, die ich hier anbiete, den ganzen Tag so fabriziert. Weil es kann ja keiner von mir erwarten, dass ich von meinem KI Chatbot jedes Protokoll mitlese, jedes Bild angucke, was da generiert wird, jedes Quiz angucke, was da da generiert wird und kann man sich dann wirklich so einfach frei machen davon, indem man sagt, ja, ist ja KI und müsste ja wissen, dass es im Zweifelsfall irgendwie Murks ist, ist ja eure Verantwortung, lieber User, da mal drauf zu schauen und zu gucken, ob alles rechtens ist. Viel Spaß damit. Kann ich das so verkürzen oder muss ich nicht auch am Ende, wenn mein, ich sag mal ganz übertrieben, wenn mein Chatbot irgendwie eskaliert und die die Kunden mit Profanitäten beleidigt oder so was, ja, bin ich nicht trotzdem dafür verantwortlich, was der da so tut, weil der ist ja mein Produkt.\n\nJa, es gibt ja diese ganzen Fälle, ne, man hat das ja so manchmal online mitgekriegt, irgendwie son son son Chatbot fängt halt an, Kunden wüst zu beschimpfen oder so was, ja. Wenn ich jetzt hier, weiß ich nicht, Salesforce bin und biete meinen Customer Support Bot an für Lotum, so, und jetzt ist der auf der Lotum Webseite und die Kunden fragen da, hey, ich komm hier bei 4 Bilder ein Wort nicht weiter, kannst Du mir bitte helfen, bla? Und dann fängt der Chatbot an zu sagen, ja, Du bist aber blöd, ist doch nicht unser Problem, ja, so. Und dann fühlt sich da son Kunde irgendwie angegriffen und beleidigt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich weiß nicht, ob da jetzt 'n Schaden aus Anspruch, Klaus.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, das ist jetzt son sehr son sehr kleiner Fall, ja, aber man kann es ja beliebig schlimm sich ausdenken eigentlich, ja. Und das war so meine Frage son bisschen, ne. Wenn wenn wenn ich setze da son Produkt in die Welt rein und ich muss ja irgendwie dafür verantwortlich sein, was es so tut.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm. Ja, ich glaube, der der Tipp ist das nicht zu versprechen, dass wenn man eine KI einsetzt, alles geprüft und richtig ist. Das ist der einzige Weg, wie man damit verantwortlich umgehen kann, denk ich. Also alles zu prüfen ist keine Möglichkeiten, es nicht zu prüfen und sich blind darauf zu verlassen und zu Qualitätsversprechend abzugeben, ist natürlich auch nicht clever. Ja, also bleibt eigentlich nur noch, dass dass man eben die dieses Versprechen nicht abgibt, dass alles perfekt ist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und was auch aus meiner Sicht immer wichtig ist, ist eine menschliche Kontrolle, ne, dass Du einfach sagst, wenn eben so Fälle auftreten, dass beispielsweise der Chatbot aus dem Ruder läuft, ja und dass man dann eben son wie auch immer geartete Überwachung hat, dass man das relativ schnell merkt und dann eben auch eingreifen kann und sich dann eben auch mit dem entsprechenden Chatbot Anbieter in Verbindung setzt und schaut, dass das möglichst zeitnah dann auch geregelt wird oder eben der vorübergehend abgeschaltet wird. Aber diese Verhältnis ist dann ja eher auf Vertragsebene zwischen dem Anbieter des Chatbots und die als Unternehmen, also nicht mit den Kunden. Sind 2 verschiedene.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Mhm. Es gab ja relativ früh in dieser KI Welle diesen Fall, über den, glaub ich, viel berichtet wurde, irgend 'n Chatbot hat auf der Webseite 1 Autohändlers dem Kunden 'n Auto für einen Dollar verkauft, weil der Kunde den Chatbot quasi so lange bearbeitet hat, bis der Chatbot irgendwann gesagt hat, ja, klingt nach 'nem fairen Deal und können wir so machen. Und hat dann am Ende auch seinen Anspruch da durchgesetzt und dieses Auto für 'n Euro bekommen. Das hat, glaube ich, viele erst mal so verschreckt, weil am Ende sie quasi in die Haftung genommen werden für das, was die KI da Kunden gegenüber verspricht.\n\nIst das auch sone Sorge, die bei euch aufkommt und die Leute dann sagen, na ja, wenn ich jetzt hier KI in mein Produkt bringe, ja, ja, wie wie kann ich da, wie kann ich da sone Glaubhaftigkeit irgendwie auch erzeugen? Also\n\nSpeaker 1: Oder das Gegenteil.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder das Gegenteil, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das Gegenteil, ganz klar. Also wenn ich jetzt überlege, wir wollen Support cases einfacher von von der KI bearbeiten lassen, zum Teil, nicht komplett, ne, nur in bestimmten Fällen und so was, dann muss klar sein, egal was die KI da ausgibt, das ist von der KI geschrieben. Also es muss die Möglichkeit geben, das irgendwie an Menschen zu eskalieren. Es muss die Möglichkeit geben. Das ist auch purer purer Eigeninteresse.\n\nAlso wir wollen niemandem dahinters Licht führen oder so. Wir wollen ja nur, dass die Fälle schneller und einfacher bearbeitet werden, vielleicht schneller irgendwo 'n Look-up in in den oder so was, ne. Also das ist definitiv die Empfehlung. Und das hilft einem natürlich dann auch, falls es doch irgendwie 'n Auto für einen Euro verkauft, zu sagen, na ja, da sagen, na ja, da ist ganz klar drauf hingewiesen worden. Da verbindet jederzeit mit 'nem Mensch, das eine KI, die Antwort, die Aussagen können, Ungenauigkeiten oder Falschaussagen beinhalten.\n\nAber in der Regel helfen sie und deswegen bieten wir das ja an.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also maximale Transparenzoffensive an der Stelle?\n\nSpeaker 2: Definitiv.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt haben wir ganz lange darüber gesprochen, wie das mir und meinen Kunden gegenüber quasi so ergehen kann. Wie ist das denn in der internen Nutzung, wir hatten da ganz am Anfang son bisschen drüber gesprochen, diese diese Quizfragen, ja. Wir haben ja jetzt auch hier mit 4 Bilder ein Wort, ein ein ein Produkt, was super bildlastig, Bildergenerierung geht ja auch mittlerweile sehr, sehr gut. Was ich mich da immer frag ist, wem gehören denn diese ganzen oder wer hätte denn das Urheberrecht an diesen KI erzeugten Bildern, weil das ja, gerade wenn sie Teile von unseren Spielen sind, ja schon auch irgendwie relevant sein kann, oder? Ich mein, ich ich kann das auch gestehen, ja, wir haben auch von den Programmierballogos\n\nSpeaker 2: auch in\n\nSpeaker 0: den Assets sind auch son paar KI generiert, ja. Pst, das hat keiner gehört. Und ich frag mich dann immer so, ja, also wir machen das, alle anderen machen das irgendwie auch, aber sind das wirklich meine Bilder am Ende? Oder wessen Bilder sind das, die jetzt auf dieser programmierbar Webseite sind?\n\nSpeaker 2: Nicht deine jedenfalls oder also nicht. Das Problem ist, das Urheberrecht kommt zur Anwendung und das Urheberrecht, das gibt's ja schon seit geraumer Zeit. Und da steht eben drin, dass die geschützten Werke müssen persönlich geistige Schöpfungen sein, ja? Und persönliche geistige Schöpfungen sind nur solche, die von Menschen generiert werden, ja? Also da gab's in, was nicht, 20 15, 16 gab's son Fall, wo 'n Affe, vielleicht kennt ihr das, 'n Affe, naruto, hat son 'nem Kameramann die Kamera aus der Hand genommen und son Selfie gemacht.\n\nUnd da wurde dann auch 'n Verfahren in den USA zwar, aber geführt, ob eben es Urheberrechtsschutz gibt an diesem L Selfie, was dieses die diese Affe generiert hat. Und da haben die Gerichte gesagt, nein. Und das ist per heute Standard, also weder tierisches noch maschinengenerierter Output, wie wir's nennen, ist urheberrechtsschutzfähig.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, da da hätt ich eine Folgefrage dazu. Klar. Wenn ich mich jetzt vor Adobe Illustrator setze oder so was und ein Bild damit male, ich bin Urheber dieses Bildes, oder? Auch wenn ich's am Computer gemalt hab, aber ich hab's ja trotzdem gemacht.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn ich jetzt bei ChatGPT, Google, wo auch immer, meinen Prompt eingebe, bin ich ja auch Schöpfer dieses Prompts. Also ich sag ja der Maschine, was sie tun soll, genauso wie ich in Illustrator sage, mach hier einen roten Punkt, mach da eine blaue Linie, mach dieses und jenes. So ist ja das prompt auch nur eine andere Art von Anweisungen, die quasi die Maschine umzusetzen hat. Wo ist da der Unterschied?\n\nSpeaker 2: Der Unterschied ist, dass Du durch den prompt nur eine zufällige Herausgabe, Also Du bekommst nur 'n zufälliges Ergebnis. Das hast Du nicht wirklich in der Hand, ja, weil wenn Du den gleichen Prompt eingibst, einmal heute und einmal morgen, dann kommt jedes Mal 'n unterschiedliches Ergebnis raus. Und das ist der Unterschied, dass Du sagst, Du kannst es eben nicht beeinflussen, sondern die der Output stammt einfach von der Maschine. Je nachdem, wie die eben trainiert wurde, kannst Du eben ganz unterschiedlichen Output herausbekommen. Also das ist Also\n\nSpeaker 1: ich bin voll bei dir, dass das herrschende Meinung ist und dass das so Aber ich bin auch Verfechter 1 anderen Meinung. Ich glaub nämlich auch, also die die schöpferische Prägung muss ja von 'nem Individuum kommen, ne. Das heißt, die die Entscheidungen, die persönlichen Entscheidungen, wie das Werk am Ende sein soll, soll von einem Menschen kommen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und da\n\nSpeaker 1: kann ich verstehen, wenn auch wenn's da mit dem Foto 'n Selfie von sich macht, dass das eben nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt ist. Ist. Aber ich seh KI in vielen Fällen wie ein Werkzeug. Also wenn ich jetzt 'n Fenster aufmachen würde und meine Staffel leider irgendwie in den Garten werfe und dann regnet's zufällig drauf und dann werbe ich das an die Wand und sag, voila, Kunst. Dann dann werden doch, dann würden ja alle sagen, wow, genial, Kunst.\n\nAber es war eigentlich zufällig, ob jetzt 'n Vogel grad vorbeigefahren ist oder jetzt geregnet hat oder wie auch immer das dann aussieht. Und ich hab die Entscheidung nur getroffen, da eine Staffel 3 rauszuwerfen. Und trotzdem wär das, glaub ich, urheber richtig geschützt, würden zumindest viele sagen. Bei 'ner KI, glaub ich, kommt's drauf an, wenn ich nur reinschreibe, schönes Haus, dann wär's natürlich zu wenig. Aber wenn ich den Zusammenhang zwischen dem, was ich getan hab, also dem prompt oder ne, einzelne, also mittlerweile ist ja nicht nur 'n prompt, man kann ja auch mehr Verarbeitungsschritte da haben und dem, was man dann am Ende sieht,\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wenn man diesen Zusammenhang herstellen kann, dann verstehe ich noch nicht, dass man sagt, dass man pauschal sagt, KI ist überhaupt nicht schutzwähig. Weil ich, also man man ist ja schon soweit ganz klar, dass man sagt, ja, der Text, der prompt, ne, den kann man schützen, das ist ja, glaube ich, logisch. Man hat sich diesen Text ja erdacht, aber den den Schritt von dem prompt, also der Anleitung, den Entscheidungen, die man macht für das Kunstwerk zum Kunstwerk und diesen Zusammenhang, wenn der stark genug ist, dann wär ich schon der Meinung, dass man das vielleicht würdigen kann, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Könnte man meinen. Es gibt allerdings in den USA schon entgegengesetzte, nicht also es gibt eine Entscheidung vom US Copyright Office. Und zwar gab's einen Künstler, der hat ein KI generiertes Bild erstellt und hat das dann noch mal mit 600 Proms oder über 600 Proms noch mal nachbearbeitet und hat das dann eingereicht. Und selbst da war das Copyright Office der Meinung, also nein, auch das reicht nicht aus. Und das Bild sieht, so wie's ursprünglich war, zu dem, wie's dann mit diesen 600 Prom verändert wurde, schon tatsächlich deutlich anders aus.\n\nAber auch das hat nicht gereicht. Und das schon sone hohe Hürde, dass man aktuell sagen kann, wohl eher schwierig, das schützen zu lassen. Letzten Endes, es gibt noch nicht viele Gerichtsentscheidungen, ne, also kann sich auch irgendwann anders rauskristallisieren, aber per heute scheint sich das so überall so durchzusetzen, dass man sagt, nee, einen Schutz gibt's dann\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das heißt aber, dass diese ganzen Bilder, die damit jetzt generiert worden sind, die gehören eigentlich niemandem.\n\nSpeaker 2: Richtig.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das heißt, wenn ich jetzt auf, weiß ich nicht, ich finde auf Amazon ein Buch, von dem ich erfahre, dass der Autor das eigentlich nur mit k I geschrieben hat, weil er gedacht hat, der kann so als unabhängiger Autor reich werden, Kann ich mir dieses Buch dann beliebig kopieren, ohne eine Urheberrechtsverletzung zu begehen? Weil ja kein schützenswerter Inhalt drin ist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Die Frage ist natürlich, die sich stellt, kannst Du, also wenn Du gesichertes Wissen hast, dass dieses Buch rein KI generiert ist, ja, und keinerlei sonstiger großer menschlicher Input dazu ist, dann würd ich sagen, ja, kannst Du dir kannst Du dir sozusagen zu eigenen Aber wie gesagt, am Ende wird es wird's dazu Gerichtsentscheidungen geben müssen, ja. Aber per heute würd ich sagen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Richard, Du wolltest grade noch was fragen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, zum Thema Zufall. Eine KI funktioniert ja erst mal komplett deterministisch. Also wenn man auf 0\n\nSpeaker 0: Ohne Temperatur, das war das wär jetzt auch meine andere Frage, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ohne Temperatur, ne, dann ist es so, dass alles, was man als Input gibt, ja, also also immer wenn man denselben Input gibt, gibt's denselben Output, 100 Prozent. Wenn man, das ist bei manchen, also bei manchen Umgebungen kann man das einstellen und auf 0 setzen, das keinerlei Zufall und dann ist es immer gleich. Gut, das beantwortet natürlich nicht die schöpferische Leistung, die dahintersteckt im eigenen Prompt, aber zumindest kann man dann sagen, es gibt keinerlei Zufall, dass der Computer da großartig mitwirkt, sondern ich nutze es als reines Werkzeug. Also genauso wie die Pixel, die ich mit 'ner digitalen Spraydose mache, ist ja auch Zufall, aber es ist 'n Mittel, was ich bewusst einsetzen kann, mein Bild zu erzeugen. Und damit kann ich rumspielen, damit kann ich was schau, ne, machen, damit ich genau das Bild rausbekomme, was ich will.\n\nSo so wär zumindest meine Herangehensweise, aber ich hoffe auch, dass vielleicht der ein oder andere Richter sich davon überzeugen lässt in Zukunft, weil es wär natürlich schade, wenn so was gar nicht schützenswert ist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Werden wir sehen. Na, gab's\n\nSpeaker 0: so was in der Geschichte schon mal, dass es ein ein ein Medium, ein Werkzeug gab, wo man erst davon ausgegangen ist, es kann keinen Urheberrechtsschutz genießen und im Nachgang dann durch Weiterentwicklung oder durch, wie Richard grade beschrieben hat, sone bessere Nachvollziehbarkeit von dem, was da passiert ist, wo sich dann so was doch eingestellt hat?\n\nSpeaker 2: Müssten wir mal ChatGPT fragen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt sag keine Idee. Ich, nee,\n\nSpeaker 2: das weiß ich nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab grad überlegt, weißt Du, so die ersten elektronischen Musikinstrumente oder irgendwie so was, ne, wo ja auch, ne, weil weil also\n\nSpeaker 2: Es wär nichts bekannt dazu.\n\nSpeaker 1: Also Urheberrecht funktioniert ja so, dass man sagt, 'n Mensch muss irgendwie eine schöpferische Tätigkeit leisten und so weiter. Aber für Fotoaufnahmen gibt's ja noch mal getrennt davon eine Norm. Ist das nicht was Vergleichbares, also es geht eine andere Richtung, aber dass man für ein bestimmtes für ein bestimmtes Werkzeug eine Sonderregel schafft und sagt, Fotos sind immer schützenswert, egal ob Du die Kameraeinstellung beherrscht oder nicht. Oder ist das nicht so?\n\nSpeaker 2: Das stimmt. Also Lichtbildwerke werden anders geschützt. Also Lichtbilder, Lichtbildwerke, ist jetzt sehr juristisch ehrlich gesagt, ja. Lichtbilder haben einen kürzeren Schutz, ja, sind aber per se immer geschützt. Ich glaub, es gibt 'n paar Ausnahmen.\n\nAber natürlich, es gibt auch so gewollte Regelungen, die der Urheber, der Gesetzgeber ins Urhebergesetz aufgenommen hat, ja. Also zum Beispiel Presseverleger und so was, ja. Also da gibt's durchaus einige Regelungen, die man so als bewusst, wo man gemerkt hat, hier fehlt son bisschen der Schutz nach dem, wie man's halt vor 100 Jahren irgendwann mal zusammengeschrieben hat. Computerprogramme zum Beispiel, ne, ist auch sone Sache, wo man eben im Nachhinein gemerkt hat, da braucht man noch 'n paar Sonderregelungen und dann hat man das einfach aufgenommen. Genau.\n\nAlso kann sich durchaus entwickeln. Per heute versucht man natürlich immer noch mit dem gegebenem Gesetzeswerk, das das neue Medium KI drunter zu schaufeln und muss eben gucken, wo's rauskommt. Aber klar, wenn man da merkt, dass es da eine Regelungslücke gibt, dann ist durchaus denkbar, dass sich der Gesetzgeber da noch mal bewegt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt haben wir darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI meinen Kunden gegenüber nutze. Wir haben darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI sehr benutze. Der letzte große Fall, wahrscheinlich der seltenste, aber der Interessanteste ist ja, was muss ich beachten, wenn ich selber eigene KI Modelle bauen, trainieren, feintunen möchte, so. Weil das ja auch nicht so ganz ohne ist. So am Ende stehen und fallen diese Modelle mit den Daten, mit denen sie quasi trainiert und gefüttert werden und an die muss ja auch erst mal rankommen.\n\nSo, da wär jetzt meine erste Frage, ganz laienhaft so, was darf ich denn dafür überhaupt nehmen? Alles, was ich im Internet finde, Fragezeichen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also am einfachsten ist, Du nimmst nur deine eigenen Datensätze, ja, die Du bei dir eigenes Wissen, was Du bei dir so in der Firma vorhanden hast. Das ist am einfachsten, weil da hast Du die Rechte dran und da kann im Regelfall nichts passieren. Das ist der leichteste Fall. Dann schwieriger wird's schon, wenn Du Daten, also Du kannst dir natürlich Datensätze einlizenzieren von Dritten, ja, sei es, wenn Du sagst, Du willst jetzt Videos erstellen, Shutterstock oder Ähnlichen, ne. Das geht.\n\nDa muss man eben dann genau drauf achten, wie sind die Lizenzbedingungen? Wofür darf ich sie benutzen? Darf ich sie eben, darf ich sie kommerziell benutzen? Darf ich sie zum Training benutzen? Also da gibt's eine ganze Reihe unterschiedliche, auch unterschiedlich teurer Modelle dann oder Lizenzmodelle natürlich.\n\nGenau. Und komplizierter wird's im Bereich personenbezogene Daten, aber\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, bevor wir da dazu kommen, vielleicht eine Frage zu dem, ich muss die Sachen lizenzieren, die ich dafür nutzen will. Weil ich verstehe, dass ich, wenn ich hier Bilder irgendwie nutzen will, ne, kauf ich mir eine Lizenz, dann kann ich die in meinen Spielen, in meinen Printartikeln, keine Ahnung, überall benutzen. Weil ich ja quasi dieses Bild auch 1 zu 1 wiedergebe, so. Wenn ich jetzt aber ja nur mein LLM damit trainiere, an mit 'nem Bild oder mit 'nem Text, wie auch immer, dann findet sich ja dieses Ding später nicht mehr in dem LLM und es ist auch nur sehr schwer bis unmöglich, daraus wieder abzuleiten, ne. Wieso muss ich das denn dann lizenzieren, wenn ich es ja gar nicht vervielfältige sozusagen?\n\nEs ist ja nicht so, dass ich jetzt irgendwie Kopien von dem Bild verkaufen möchte, sondern ich nutz es ja nur einmal für mich intern. Niemand da draußen sieht es. Wieso muss ich da trotzdem für zahlen? So mal ganz ketzerisch gefragt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Also es gibt natürlich noch die, es gibt noch sone Schrankenregelung, ja, im im Urheberrecht, jetzt wird's 'n bisschen technisch. Danach darf man, das das ist das sogenannte Text and Data Mining, ja, dazu dürfen Daten zum Training von KI benutzt werden, es sei denn, der Rechteinhaber hat 'n Vorbehalt erklärt. Und mittlerweile ist es tatsächlich so, dass natürlich sämtliche großen Datensatzinhaber diesen Vorbehalt erklärt haben, ja. Also sei es alle großen Zeitungen, Zeitschriften, ja, also sämtliche Bilddatenbanken, die erklären eben diesen\n\nSpeaker 0: der eigentlich die Recht innehber, hat es mir verboten sozusagen. Und mich aus diesem Verbot freizukaufen, muss ich dann quasi Lizenz erwerben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab so verstanden, dass im Urhebergesetz eine Ausnahme gibt, also das Text im Data Mining Ausnahme. Und in dem Rahmen, was der ist, kann ich nicht genau sagen, aber in dem Rahmen darf man das, außer Das man hat widersprochen. Nee, außer man hat selber widersprochen, dass man's für die, also dass jemand das mit den eigenen Daten darf.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Dann hatt ich dich grad unterbrochen, als wir zu den Benutzerdaten gekommen waren. Wenn ich mein Modell auf Daten trainieren will, die von anderen Benutzern, anderen Dritten\n\nSpeaker 2: Da hatt ich eigentlich den Blick schon Richtung Richard gewendet, weil da hat Richard, Tommy more. Richards Lieblingsbericht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich würd noch gern ergänzen, wie kann man überhaupt sich davor schützen? Also wie kann man selber son Opt out machen? Ich möchte nicht, dass die Webseite der programmierbar von der KI gescrept wird, ne. Kann ja auch 'n häufiger sein. Ja.\n\nUnd da gibt's die Möglichkeiten, im robot txt das zu schreiben. Also da gibt findet man auch viele Vorlagen irgendwie im Internet und so was. Oder auch andere, ex robot Tags Tags, no AI Tags. Da bist Du wahrscheinlich versierter als ich, wie man das genau macht. Oder ganz hart einfach nur die bekannten AI Skraper und Crawler irgendwie blocken.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber das ist eine interessante Frage, weil Du auch grade gesagt hast, Peggy, das sind manche Zeitungen und Verlage das ja quasi pauschal schon schon ablehnen. Wenn Du mir das jetzt nicht gesagt hattest, hätt ich das natürlich a nicht gewusst, aber das ist ja meine eigene Schuld. Aber steht ja auch jetzt nicht ganz groß oben auf der Zeitung drauf, ne. Also wenn ich hier die Frankfurter Rundschau aufschlage, steht ja nicht, Banner oben auf Seite 1, bitte nicht in dein AI Model schmeißen. Wo woran kann ich denn überhaupt erkennen oder wie sehr muss ich da nachforschen, nachfragen et cetera, ob das erlaubt ist oder nicht?\n\nOder wie sehr ist da der der Inhaltsersteller in der Pflicht, das möglichst markant zu machen, dass er das nicht möchte?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also sämtliche großen Zeitschriften beispielsweise, die haben diese Text zum Data Mining, diesen Ausschluss alle auf ihrer Webseite erklärt und das müsstest Du auch einhalten. Da bist Du schon auch selber in der Pflicht, wenn Du die trotzdem benutzt, ist es dann eben unter Umständen Urheberrechtsverletzung, weil Du deren ausdrückliche ausdrücklichen, wie sagt man, Vorbehalt eben nicht respektierst.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das Teil ihrer AGBs einfach\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Ja, okay. Ja. Also die meisten haben's eben, wie Richard sagte, in dieser Robo txt Datei drin, aber oft wird's eben auch noch wirklich in den AGBs erklärt oder als extra lesbarer Vorbehalt, sodass Du auch als Mensch es eben gut finden kannst.\n\nSpeaker 1: Also Maschinen- und menschenlesbar, ich glaub, da kann man nicht zu viel machen. Problem ist dann immer noch, woher willst Du wissen, ob das funktioniert hat? Also Du kannst es ja schlicht nachweisen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist 'n guter Punkt. Wer ist denn da am Ende in der Pflicht und in der Verantwortung eigentlich? Also wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI, ohne Ihnen was zu unterstellen zu wollen, aber weil's einfach so der Größe da draußen ist, wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI gehe und sag, ihr habt aber euer GPT an meinen programmierbaren Folgen hier trainiert und ich finde das böse und gemein und will mein Geld zurück, Wie wie läuft das? Also es\n\nSpeaker 2: gibt ja mittlerweile schon eine ganze Reihe an Prozessen, ja, sowohl in den USA, aber auch tatsächlich in Deutschland an den diversen Gerichten. Und da wird eben dann, also in der Regel sind's die Gerichte schon so, dass das Vervielfältigungen sind, also urheberrechtliche Handlungen. Und dann ist eben die Frage, ne, durfte man's, durfte man's nicht? Gibt's Vorbehalte, die erklärt wurden, die wirksam erklärt wurden? Wie sieht das aus?\n\nZum Beispiel ein Gerichtsfall am Landgericht Hamburg, da geht's eben auch diese dieses Graping. Da ging's aber darum, dass diese Daten gescraped worden von 'nem Verein, der das zu wissenschaftlichen Zwecken gemacht hat. Und dafür gibt's wieder eine besondere Ausnahme, ja. Und da haben sich die Richter aber auch tatsächlich son bisschen bisschen schon geäußert zu dieser zu dieser Frage des Vorbehalts, ja, und ihre Lösung da son bisschen proklamiert. Und dann gibt's beispielsweise auch 'n anderen Fall, der ist jetzt beim EuGH gelandet, also am höchsten europäischen Gericht.\n\nDer kommt aus Ungarn und da war's tatsächlich so, dass ein Zeitschriftenverleger nachweisen konnte, dass bei Gemini 'n gewisser Text eben 1 zu 1 wiedergegeben war, sodass die Verletzung relativ klar war, da ist jetzt eben die Frage, wie ist das juristisch zu bewerten? Und weil das Gericht in Budapest gesagt hat, das ist alles Europarecht, das können wir so nicht beurteilen, ohne uns da direkt in in vom höchsten Gericht einfach mal die die Fragen beantworten zu lassen, haben die das direkt da zum EuGH geschickt. Also das ist tatsächlich alles momentan noch im Fluss und ja, wird man sehen, wie\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt ist das ja der sehr einfache Fall, ne. Ich fang an, weiß nicht, die ersten 2 Sätze von meinem Werk irgendwie in son LLM zu füttern und das spuckt mir den Rest aus, dann ist offensichtlich klar, scheinbar war mein Text hier im Trainingsdatensatz. Aber das eigentliche Training ist ja quasi das Geschäfts, Betriebsgeheimnis von diesen ganzen Firmen und es ist ja superintransparent, was da passiert, was die überhaupt zum Trainieren verwenden, wie sie die Daten vielleicht vorher noch aufbereiten, verkürzen, keine Ahnung, was alles, hab ich da, also also für mich als Laie seh ich da ja eigentlich überhaupt gar keine Möglichkeit, wenn wir jetzt bei unserem Beispiel bleiben, überhaupt auch nur zu verstehen, ob die programmierbaren Folgen jemals bei OpenAI gelandet sind oder nicht, weil sie ja eigentlich nicht offenlegen müssen, was sie da benutzen, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Per heute müssen sie noch nicht offenlegen, aber nach dem AI Actwitz eine Verpflichtung geben, dass offengelegt werden muss, welche Trainingsdaten benutzt wurden. Aber auch da ist momentan nicht klar, in welcher Granulat das erfolgen muss, ja. Ob dann wirklich steht, wenn ich's richtig im Kopf habe, ist es tatsächlich mehr sone allgemeine Verpflichtung. Also das Gesetz kommt ja auch erst im nächsten Jahr zur Anwendung, sodass sich da dann auch im Nachhinein erst noch rausbilden muss, wie die Praxis das handhabt, ja. Also das ist aktuell noch nicht klar.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und AI Act klingt ja erst mal so sehr europäisch.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Oder\n\nSpeaker 1: ist es auch, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das heißt, muss sich ein Google, ein Open AI, ein Apple überhaupt daran stören? Ja. Warum? Sie sind ja nicht in Europa.\n\nSpeaker 1: Die bieten's aber hier an. Ah. Also können Sie ja auch ganz Europa ausschließen, wie Sie schon mit DSGVO vorhatten, weil wie Sie so nerven, aber tun Sie nicht. Okay. Und für uns gilt das übrigens, egal ob wir's für Europa anbieten oder nicht, nur weil wir hier sitzen schon.\n\nIch wollt\n\nSpeaker 0: grad sagen, wir wohnen ja aber auch hier, das das versteht. Ja, ja, okay. Mhm. Okay, wunderbar. Bei dem Datenschutz dabei zu bleiben, wenn meine User Daten auf meiner Plattform generieren, darf ich die dann einfach so benutzen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Müssen wir jetzt erst mal fragen, sind das personenbezogene Daten?\n\nSpeaker 0: Macht das einen Unterschied?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. So haben wir gar kein Datenschutzthema, wenn's keine personenbezogenen Daten sind. Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, die\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Wir verweisen noch mal auf die Folge 160, zu lernen Die\n\nSpeaker 1: Munition von so der Daten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Personenbezogene Daten unterscheidet davon. Vielleicht, also der einfache Fall ist offensichtlich, es sind keine personenbezogene Daten, ja, dann geht das wohl.\n\nSpeaker 1: Es ist es kommt wirklich drauf an. Also wenn aus den Daten, die generiert werden, also jemand tippt irgendwo was ein, ne, dann ist natürlich erst mal Personenbezug ganz klar da, weil irgend eine Art von ID IP Adresse oder irgendwas\n\nSpeaker 0: kann ich ja alles weg anonymisieren.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, dafür brauchst Du dann, das ist auch eine Verarbeitung selbst, brauchst eine Rechtsgrundlage, aber wenn's dann anonym ist und legitim anonymisiert wurde, ist man dann eigentlich aus dem Datenschutz raus. Solang der Inhalt natürlich nicht selbst irgendwie 'n Personenbezugsdatum ist. Das heißt, wenn Du irgendwie meinen schreibst, hi, ich bin der Jan und ich wohne innen, dann hast Du da auch schon was drin. Oder halt 'n, ne, es ist, alles hängt und steht und fällt mit Anonymisierung möglich oder nicht, glaub ich.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und muss ich meinen Nutzerinnen grundsätzlich eine Option geben, da rauszuobten aus diesem Prozess? Oder ist das quasi meine Geschäftsentscheidung, ob ich das anbieten will oder nicht? Wenn ich jetzt, weiß nicht, bin eine Fitness App, so, ja. Und ich guck mir hier alle aufgezeichneten Joggingstrecken an, 'n Modell zu trainieren mit wann laufen Leute, wie gut und wie schnell und bla. Da interessiert mich ja nicht, ob das Hans Müller war oder der Richard oder keine Ahnung was, sondern das kann ich ja gut anonymisieren.\n\nSo, und dann trainiere ich jetzt damit meinen Fitnesscoach Modell, so, ja. Muss ich dann dabei meinen Nutzern, deren Daten ich ja verwende, eine Option geben zu sagen, ich möchte, dass ihr meine Daten nicht zum Training verwendet oder kann ich das anbieten, wenn ich möchte, bin aber nicht dazu gezwungen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also mir ist, wenn wir davon ausgehen, es sind keine personenbezogenen Daten, ist mir keine Norm bekannt, dass man das anbieten muss. Aber wir würden andere Glocken klingeln. Ich würde erst mal sagen, okay, warum, wofür machen wir diese Verarbeitung? Geht's sind irgendwie Gesundheitsdatenrichtungen? Dann haben wir da Riesenproblem\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, das ist, was war das alles allgemeine Datenschutz wahrgenommen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Oder auch KI Fragen. Da gibt's auch eine lange Liste an Themen, die man nicht anfassen darf mit KI.\n\nSpeaker 0: Warum? Welche?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ein Blick ins Gesetz erspart viel Geschwätz. Die kann ich nicht alle auswendig. Ist zum Glück auch nicht unser Ding.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und die darf ich mit KI nicht anfassen im Sinne von, ich darf sie mit KI nicht verarbeiten oder ich darf sie nicht nutzen, meine KI zu trainieren?\n\nSpeaker 1: Es gibt verbotene Praktiken im KI Bereich, die sind in Artikel 5.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das klingt schon ominös.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Und Da steht da so drin und jetzt\n\nSpeaker 0: musst Du auch vorlesen. Ist,\n\nSpeaker 1: vorlesen geht nicht, sonst wären wir heut nicht mehr fertig. Das sind wir sehr lang. Und dann gibt's noch Hochrisiko KI Systeme und da auch noch eine Liste an Themen und Arten der Verarbeitung, die man nicht mache sollte oder nur unter über so Hochrisiko KI Systeme darf man aber nur, wenn man lange Liste an Anforderungen einhält, die ich wirklich nicht kann und jedem raten würde, macht das nur, wenn das wirklich euer Hauptgeschäftszweck ist, weil es ist sehr viel Arbeit.\n\nSpeaker 0: Peggy, hast Du da die Executive Summary, warum es Sachen gibt, die ich mit meiner KI nicht machen können, darf?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also die Thematik ist so, bisschen die gerät man eben durch die durch diese gesundheitsbezogenen Daten eventuell in dem Bereich Medizinprodukt, was in diesen Hochrisiko KI Bereich fällt. Das ist, glaub ich, in die Richtung, in die in die Du gehst, ne. Und wenn man Hochrisiko KI ist, dann gelten eben deutlich strengere Anforderungen an den Anbieter dieser dieser dieser App oder dieser dieser KI. Genau, also zum Beispiel, was bestimmt die, was was bestimmt sie unter anderem? Man muss man muss das in der EU Datenballe registrieren, beispielsweise das Medizinprodukt und ganze Reihe an anderen Compliance Regeln, die man einhalten muss.\n\nAlso Konformitätsbewertung und ja, also wirklich eine ganze Litanei.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist da ein Kriterium auch von son bisschen versuchen, Diskriminierung im Modell zu verhindern? Ich hab da vor Kurzem mal 'n spannenden Vortrag zugehört, was so, ne, Baiers, der schon im Datensatz drin ist, wird ja dann multipliziert potenziell von meinem Modell, ja. Und wenn dann natürlich das Modell dafür verantwortlich ist, weiß nicht, im medizinischen Bereich, im Sicherheitsbereich, irgendwo Entscheidungen zu treffen, na, geht's dann so was, dass ich quasi als Anbieter mehr darauf achten muss, keinen Bias in meinen Datensätzen zu haben, keinen Bias in meinem Produkt zu haben, als das jetzt vielleicht bei, weiß nicht, nur mal einem Chat GPT oder so der Fall wär. Ist das so der der Hintergedanke oder geht's einfach nur darum, wir wollen einfach nur wissen, also geht es dem Gesetzgeber wirklich eine eine spürbare Verbesserung der Sicherheit da drin Oder geht's in erster Linie darum, na, wir wollen überhaupt erst mal erfassen, wo das in diesem Hochsicherheitsbereich, in diesem kritischen Bereich überhaupt verwendet wird und Hauptsache, es wird erst mal registriert und dann schauen wir mal, wie wir weitermachen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Nee, dem Gesetzgeber geht's, glaube ich, darum, einfach die KI so in unterschiedlich Risikoklassen einzuclustern, ja. Also man hat halt gesagt, es gibt verbotene KI Systeme, ja, die sind schon seit Februar 25 dürfen die in der EU nicht mehr angeboten werden. Und dann hat er halt diese Hochrisiko KI Systeme und die eben besonderen Anforderungen unterliegen, eben sicherzustellen, dass diese Produktsicherheit gegeben ist, wenn Du so willst, ja? Und dadrunter sagt man, na ja, dann gibt's halt so die Chatbots und und so ganz einfach strukturierte KI KIs, die diesen Anforderungen eben nicht genügen müssen, sondern die nur Transparenzpflichten unterliegen, ja. Also sprich, Du musst eben den den Nutzern dieser KI mitteilen, dass sie mit 'ner KI interagieren.\n\nDas ist so für diese niedrigste Stufe und für die anderen versucht man eben, die so sicher wie möglich auf dem europäischen Markt anbieten zu können. Und das hat man halt versucht, so zu verallgemeinern, ne. Ich meine, Du kannst dir vorstellen, da fallen Flugzeuge drunter, da fallen aber eben auch Medizinprodukte drunter, ja, also was ja 'n wirklich ganz großes Konglomerat ist. Und das macht's nicht leicht, das dann so zu verallgemeinern. Und diese diese Registrierungspflicht ist nur eine der Pflichten.\n\nAlso das ist anderes eben insbesondere Dokumentationspflichten und Ähnliches.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt habt ihr mich aber trotzdem neugierig gemacht. Was sind denn diese verbotenen Fälle? Also wenn selbst bei Flugzeugen und Medizinprodukten in Anführungszeichen nur genauer hin, also ne, noch nicht das verboten ist, was gibt's denn da noch oben drüber?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich komm gleich mit der Liste.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist sie so lang?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also Social Scoring ist beispielsweise ein Fall, ja, dann eine ganze Reihe von Anwendungen im Bereich der biometrischen, sorry, Fernidentifizierung. Hast Du's?\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay, ich hab jetzt hier, also so was wie unterschwellig, absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, ne. Ausnutzung von Schutzbedürftigkeit wegen Alterbehinderung, besondere soziale ökonomischer Lage, soziale Bewertung, also Social Scoring. Präventive Strafbarkeits- oder Risikobewertung in dem Bereich. Aufbauerweiter kein Minority Report. Ja, so was.\n\nAufbau von Erweiterung von gesund Gesichtterkennungsdatenbanken durch ungezieltes Graping von Gesichtern, Emotionsableitung in Arbeit und Bildung, außer wenn der Einsatz aus medizinischer Sicherheitsgründen erfolgt. Biometrische Kategorisierung, Echtzeitfernerkennung, biometrischer Merkmal in öffentlich zugänglichen Räumen, so was. Also Sachen, wo man sagt, okay, da kann wirklich Unsinn gemacht werden, was gegen unsere Grundrechte und ne, weitergeleitet halt verstößt. Und das ist dann einfach von vornherein verboten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber es es klingt erst mal so nach alles eher Themen, die gesellschaftlich problematisch sind Ja. Und nicht unbedingt technisch 'n Problem werden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das sind alles Sachen, die auch hoffentlich niemand von sich aus machen wollte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich weiß nicht, dieses Social Scoring, da kannst Du ja in China gut punkten mit.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay, niemand, der jetzt hier zuhört und daheim sich überlegt, wie kann ich denn die KI sinnvoll und zulässig nutzen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Cool. Aber weil Du gerade einen dieser verbotenen Punkte angesprochen hast, wie war das? Manipulieren, bewusst manipulieren,\n\nSpeaker 1: unterschwellig absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, die das Verhalten wesentlich verzerren und dadurch voraussichtlich erheblichen Schaden verursachen. Also\n\nSpeaker 0: das schreit ja so nach Deep Fake?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das schreit nach Deep Fake unter anderem, ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: so.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und Ist es aber nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist es aber nicht?\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Deep Fake ist\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ist was anderes.\n\nSpeaker 1: Deep Fake, aber Deep Fake kann das sein, so, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Deep Fake ist was anderes. Deep Fake steht auch im AI, Ja. Aber das ist nicht verboten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, genau, ist das nicht verboten.\n\nSpeaker 2: Nicht ganz so verboten wie\n\nSpeaker 0: Also, wie wie ich das als Laie grade so gehört hab, ja, klingt das für mich nach, ich nutz jetzt hier son Bilder- oder Videogenerator, irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, Bildmaterial von potenziellen Menschenrechtsverletzungen zu generieren, dann irgendwie damit Stimmungen zu machen oder so was, ja. Also bewusst falsches Material, damit irgendwie Leute zu manipulieren. Das ist aber nicht das, was\n\nSpeaker 1: Du meinst? Nee, das, also bewusst falsch, in den Verboten geht's das in Verkehr bringen, die in den Inbetriebnahme, die Verwendung von KI Systemen insgesamt. Und bei Deep Fakes ist der Begriff sehr viel weiter definiert. Also im Gesetz gibt's Definitionen, meine ich fast immer, die für dieses Gesetz dann so gelten. Und in Artikel 3 sind die alle schön aufgelistet, da unter anderem gibt's da.\n\nVielleicht wollen wir das einmal\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Ja, bevor wir da aber da hinkommen. Das, was ich aber eben beschrieben habe, ja, also ich ich fälsch dir meine Bilder, irgendwie Stimmung zu machen, das ja schon, unabhängig davon, ob das jetzt Siefeg nennen oder nicht, das ist aber schon das, was damit gemeint ist, oder? Weil worauf ich hinauswill, ist eigentlich der Punkt, das lässt sich ja heute schon bewerkstelligen mit Ja. Relativ einfachen Mitteln, ne, also Bildergenerierung und so was alles.\n\nDas lässt sich ja relativ schwer kontrollieren, wofür dann Bildergenerierung genutzt wird. Ja. Ja. Ich mach jetzt hier 'n Bild von meinem verhungernden Kind und ob ich jetzt behaupte, dass es irgendwo gerade im Sudan passiert oder ob ich behaupte, ich brauch das für Bebilderungen von meinem Fantasy Roman, ja, das ist ja son sehr schmaler Grat, so technisch dazwischen, aber was ich damit mach, ist ja dann quasi eine ganz andere Geschichte. Richtig.\n\nUnd das drängt ja dann jetzt schon die Frage auf, sind wir wieder bei dem Anbieter, ja, inwieweit der sich darum kümmern muss, dass diese Sachen, die bei ihm alles generiert werden, eben nicht für diesen verbotenen Use Case, den Richard grade so schön vorgelesen hat, beschrieben werden, sondern eben nur für in Anführungszeichen legitime Zwecke benutzt wird, ja. Und wenn das jetzt ja doch da dieses Verbot gibt, dann stell ich mir schon die Frage, ich jetzt als, weiß ich nicht, Nano Banana Google Dingsbums muss jetzt gucken, dass die Bilder, die ich ausspucke, idealerweise gar nicht dazu geeignet werden, diesen diesen Fall abzudecken, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Deswegen ist der Text so lang, ums abzukürzen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie immer bei diesen Gesetzen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Im Text steht nämlich mit dem Ziel oder der Wirkung, ne, also wenn Du ein System entwickelst und anbietest oder benutzt mit dem klaren Ziel, das zu tun, wenn dein allgemeines KI System ist, auch realistische Bilder darzustellen, ist das vielleicht nicht die Zielwirkung?\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich darf keine Fake News Plattform bauen, die nur am laufenden Band Fake News produziert und auf Facebook postet.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber ich darf benutzen, mir für meine Verschwörungstheorien die geeigneten Bilder zu generieren.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Keine Ahnung, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Ja. Traurig aber war. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Gut. Sollen wir zu Deep Facts springen?\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir haben Ich hab aber nicht schon Deep Facts, ja. Das ist großartig. Also offensichtlich ist Deep Fake nicht das, was ich grade gedacht hab, was es ist, sondern was ist es denn dann?\n\nSpeaker 1: Deep Fake ist so viel mehr, leider, weil das geht mir auch aus dem Wort, ich selber verbinde mit dem Wort eigentlich auch Deep Fake ist, wenn ich dadurch negativ beeinflusst werde und es von vornherein mich irgendwie eine in eine Richtung stimmt, die die also mich manipuliert.\n\nSpeaker 0: Echt? Hätte ich jetzt gar nicht, ne? Nee. Für mich wär Deep Fake tatsächlich einfach nur Technik, die benutzt wird, im Prinzip fotorealistische Täuschungen\n\nSpeaker 1: zu machen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also es gab ja mal, ich weiß nicht, ob Du das gesehen hast, vor 'n paar Monaten schon, als noch Wahlkampf war, diese von von der Bild sone Kampagne, wo sie sone Olaf Scholz Rede nachgemacht haben und der halt im Prinzip erzählt so, wie ärgerlich doch das mit der Bild ist, weil die ja so tollen Journalismus betreiben und das den Politikern so schwer machen als abgesehen davon, dass das inhaltlich eine schwierige Aussage ist. Ist das das, was ich was ich meine? Ja, Du siehst Aber das ist ja\n\nSpeaker 1: auch eine Beeinflussung, eine ganz klarer.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, aber das liegt ja, aber ich das ich würde das nicht unbedingt mit dem Deep Fake konnieren, sondern das Deep Fake ist für mich einfach nur so, da hat halt jemand 'n Video von dem Olaf Scholz gemacht und ihm Worte in den Mund gelegt, so. Ob das jetzt gut ist oder schlecht oder böse gemeint oder nicht, ist mir vollkommen egal. Da ist da ist ein Produkt entstanden, ein eine Aufnahme, ein Dokument, was er quasi nie so selber von sich gegeben hat. So und das wäre jetzt so meine Definition davon. Ja, dann Das Schöne ist, es gibt ja eine Definition.\n\nGenau. AI Act, AI\n\nSpeaker 2: Act, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Die sagt ziemlich genau das.\n\nSpeaker 2: Die sagt\n\nSpeaker 0: ziemlich genau was?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das, was Du gesagt hast. Du sollst Bücher machen. Ja. Wunderbar. Also Deep Fake ist ein durch KI erzeugtes oder manipuliertes Bild, Ton oder Videoinhalt der wirklichen Personengegenständen, Orden, Einrichtigen oder Ereignissen ähnelt und in 1 Person fälschlicherweise als echt- oder wahrheitsgemäß erscheinen würde.\n\nHeißt, wenn ich jetzt mit meinem Hund G, 'n Foto mache und ihm irgendwas Lustiges anziehe,\n\nSpeaker 0: ist das 'n Diebweg.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ist das schon ein Diebweg? Ja. Ja. Und dann müssen wir gucken, was\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das ist jetzt per se verboten? Nein. Ach so. Nicht mehr verboten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Da geht's dann eher drum, okay, wir sind 'n Deep Fake und dann, was darf man dann damit machen oder was muss man machen? Und zwar Transparenzpflichten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber okay, also darf ich, Du darfst wahrscheinlich von deinem Hund 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil ist ja auch nur 'n Hund, so. Du darfst wahrscheinlich auch von dir selbst 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil bist Du ja selbst und Du hast ja dein, ist ja dein eigenes Bild, kannst damit machen, was Du willst. Wenn ich jetzt von dir 'n Deepfake mach, darf ich das machen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das machen oder was damit machen?\n\nSpeaker 0: Darf ich's erst mal für mich nur machen? Ich guck's alleine an. Ich mach 'n Foto von dir im Sombrero am Arbeitsplatz und häng und guck mir das nur selber für mich an, weil ich lustig find.\n\nSpeaker 2: Das darfst Du.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Schwieriger Witz, wenn's Du dann deinen Kollegen, deinen Freunden und möglicherweise irgendwo noch auf deinem Instagram Account veröffentlichst.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Also dieses Sombreo Beispiel war ja noch relativ milde. Ja. Aber da gibt's ja schon problematischere Fälle.\n\nSpeaker 2: Absolut.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und auch das dürft ich machen, solang ich's nur für mich mache? Ja. Wow. Okay. Ja, okay.\n\nOkay. Und dann darf ich aber quasi, egal wie harmlos oder nicht harmlos mein Deep Fake jetzt ist, das erst mal mit niemand anderem teilen. Außer Richard hat wahrscheinlich zugestimmt. Mhm. Nee.\n\nSpeaker 2: Das Wenn Du zustimmst, dann\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber das Teil\n\nSpeaker 2: das\n\nSpeaker 1: das steht ja nichts über wo und wie Du teilen darfst. Es steht eher darum, es geht Transparenzpflichten. Musst Du sagen, dass es ein Deepfake ist oder nicht, weil man's ja nicht erkennen kann?\n\nSpeaker 0: Also selbst wenn ich dich nicht vorher frage, aber wenn ich jetzt jedem das Bild zeige und sag, übrigens, das ist ein Deepfake, aber sieht der Richard nicht lustig aus mit seinem dann ist das auch okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich würde mich jetzt beschränken auf den AI Act und nicht auf etwaige Persönlichkeitsrechte und Datenschutz, dann machen wir alles durcheinander, aber rein von AI Act her, wenn ich meine Einwilligung für die Aufnahme gegeben habe und die und für die Öffentlichkeit auf Social Media und so weiter, wär das kein Problem, solang Du klar machst, das Bild wurde bearbeitet.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und Das\n\nSpeaker 2: heißt, dir droht kein Bußgeld, sodass der Richard das eventuell trotzdem nicht gut findet und aus zivilrechtlichen Unterlassungen und Ähnliches fordert, das kann dir natürlich trotzdem passieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und jetzt spannen wir vielleicht den Bogen zurück zu, was ist quasi handgemacht und was ist er Ärger gemacht?\n\nSpeaker 1: Wobei, vielleicht vielleicht vielleicht sollte ich mal eine Aussage visieren. Es kommt darauf an, Du musst es nicht immer kennzeichnen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau. Meine Frage wär nämlich gewesen, ich kann ja mit AI relativ viel an sonem Bild verändern, ja. Es gibt ja heutzutage, also es es fängt ja schon damit an, dass wenn ich mit meinem iPhone irgendwie 'n Foto mach, da ja automatisch schon AI irgendwie mit am Start ist, 'n bisschen Belichtung und 'n bisschen HDR und den Bildausschnitt vielleicht dynamisch zu wählen und keine Ahnung. Und das ist ja quasi auch schon mit AI entstanden, dieses Bild hätte ohne AI quasi so gar nicht existieren können, ja. Und da da wär jetzt meine Frage, wie viel muss da denn verfälscht sein, es quasi als Deep Fake deklarieren zu müssen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Aus Sicht 1 durchschnittlichen Verbrauchers. Also durch sich durchschnittlichen, der 1 durchsichtigen Verbrauchers, der sehr transparent ist. Ja. Das ist schwer zu beantworten. Das muss man im Einzelfall eben gucken.\n\nAlso es kommt, ich glaube, es kommt sehr viel, das steht leider nicht so da, aber es kommt sehr viel auf diese Täuschungswirkung an. Wie, in welche Richtung kannst Du, würdest Du jemanden damit täuschen? Da das macht das natürlich alles scharf, aber rein von der Definition her ist es 'n Deepfake und dann muss man's eigentlich kennzeichnen, außer es gibt 2 Ausnahmen. Man ist macht das Ganze zur Aufdeckung, Verhütung, Ermittlung, Verfolgung von Straftaten. Natürlich.\n\nUnd die Ausnahme Nummer 2 find ich auch sehr, bräuchten wir noch 'n bisschen mehr Text. Es geht, wenn Noch\n\nSpeaker 0: mehr Text.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, noch mehr Text leider. Wenn der Inhalt Teil 1 offensichtlich künstlichen, kreativen, satirischen oder fiktionalen Werks oder Programms ist, dann muss man's nicht ganz offen kennzeichnen, sondern es genügt ein angemessener Hinweis, der die Darstellung den Genuss nicht beeinträchtigt. Also man muss es trotzdem hinweisen, aber halt nicht so, dass man das Werk nicht ordentlich konsumieren kann. Also es kommt ja auch an 'n paar sehen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Fotoalbum mach mit 100 lustigen Richard Bildern. Reicht das, wenn ich am Anfang oder am Ende einmal sag, das ist übrigens mein Richard AI Fotoalbum und dann muss es nicht auf jedes Bild draufkleben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich vermute ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, das würde reichen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay. Okay. Oder Du übertreibst die Darstellung immer so, dass es ganz klar ist, das ist gar nicht echt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oh, das, also ja, ich versteh, was Du meinst, weil dann muss jedem klar sein, das kann nur mit AI entstanden sein. Aber da, also da zweifel ich zu sehr an den Menschen, mir irgendwie vorzustellen, was was wär allen sofort klar, ja? Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Oder Sicherheit auf dem Mond beispielsweise würde dir wahrscheinlich jetzt niemand so wirklich abnehmen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Du mich 20, 30 Jahre älter warst, wer weiß. Aber noch witzige Sache ist, das gilt ja nur für KI. Wenn Du das mit Photoshop machst, gilt die KI Verordnung gar nicht mehr. Das heißt, Du könntest mir sonen Breos anziehen, wie Du willst. Diese Transparenzpflicht gilt nur für mit KI modifizierten Bilder.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und im Zweifelsfall müsstest Du mir nachweisen, dass ich das mit KI gemacht hab und nicht mit Photoshop dir selber aufn Kopf gesetzt hab.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wenn ich das über diesen Gehweg gehen wollte und nicht über Persönlichkeitsrechte, ja. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Aber Du würdest ja tatsächlich eher aus Persönlichkeitsrechten oder aber sogar, je nach der Schärfe, auch aus strafrechtlichen Vorschriften vorgehen, ne. Verletzung der Ehre oder was? Verletzung der Ehre. Dann gibt's auch im Kunst Urhebergesetz gibt's auch noch eine Strafvorschrift. Ich glaube, also ne, wenn's 'n Bildnis ist.\n\nRichtig. Also da gibt's diverse Möglichkeiten. Müssten die Strafverfolgungsbehörden dann natürlich entsprechend tätig werden, aber per se gibt's durchaus da mehrere Möglichkeiten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Interessant zu Deep Fake fand ich auch noch, Texte sind ja nicht in der Auflistung gewesen, Bild, Ton oder Video stand drin. Texte können kein Deep Fake sein. Also mit Texten kann ich theoretisch generieren lassen, ne, 'n Brief, als ob jemand was geschrieben hat oder so.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, aber wahrscheinlich, weil ich das vorher auch schon könnte und KI da überhaupt keinen Unterschied macht. Also wenn ich jetzt in mein Dokument schreib, Richard hat gesagt, Jan ist doof, ob ich das von Hand schreib oder mit der KI mach, das macht's mir weder einfacher noch unscheinbarer. Also da ist einfach überhaupt kein Unterschied zu vorher ersichtlich. Wobei es ja\n\nSpeaker 2: auch eine Vorschrift gibt für Textmanipulation zu. Genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ach, okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, genau. Aber\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber es ist zwar kein Deepfake. Es ist kein Deepfake, das heißt, dies alles, was wir mit Ausnahmen und Kennzeichen so gesprochen haben, das ist nicht der Fall, weil bei Deepfake geht's ja darum, ist es möglichst realistisch, dass man's glauben kann, wenn man das sieht? Bei Text fällt einem das natürlich schwer, die Authentizität von bestimmten Wortnutzungen oder so. Nee, das natürlich nicht. Also haben sie was anderes geschrieben und gesagt, wenn der Zweck des Textes, ne, die Öffentlichkeit über Angelegenheiten von öffentlichem Interesse zu informieren ist, dann muss man das kennzeichnen.\n\nAlso es geht in eine ganz andere Richtung. Und ich find das schon ziemlich relevant, a, wie kann Presse jetzt mit KI arbeiten oder wie ordnungsgemäß gehen sie damit Wie viel ist ihnen die Qualität dann auch wichtig? Und Texte wär auch son Thema für Social Media Bots oder Phishingangriffe oder, okay, die werden sich an gar nix halten. Aber Social Media Bots, ist das zulässig, wenn ich mir, wie viel 1000 Follower willst Du für programmierbar haben? Also ja, dann, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, spannende Diskussion zu Deep Facts. Ich hab noch am Ende immer eine letzte Frage für Peggy. Welche Frage haben wir dir nicht gestellt? Auf welches Thema hast Du dich vorbereitet und hast gesagt, das wär superspannend und da müssen wir unbedingt drüber reden. Und jetzt hat der Jan mich gar nicht gefragt.\n\nIch wollte unbedingt noch über Thema x y sprechen. Gibt's was, was wir vergessen haben?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich würde sagen, wir haben in dieser kurz Kürze der Zeit eigentlich 'n ganz guten Ritt durch die durch die aktuellen Problemen- und Minenfelder getan. Ich wüsste jetzt nicht, ja, aus meiner Sicht fehlt nix.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab noch eine wichtige Frage. Ja? Ich als User von KI hör jetzt alles in dieser blöden Podcastfolge, was ich nicht mehr darf oder worauf ich achten muss. Ab wann gilt das Ganze denn für mich? Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Die also die Deep Fake Regelungen, die gelten erst ab 20 26 und alle urheberrechtlichen Bestimmungen und was wir vorher noch hatten, Persönlichkeitsrechte und so weiter, das sind natürlich bestehende Regelungen, die auch heute schon angewendet werden können. Aber diese kennen, was wir gar nicht bisher erwähnt hatten, vielleicht noch einen Punkt, ist, dass auch die Anbieter von von KI Systemen zukünftig diese Deepfakes markieren müssen, ja, also in welcher Form das geschehen wird. Ah, das ist Weißt\n\nSpeaker 0: man aktuell, wenn man da immer dieser Google Germany Kristall da mit drin ist?\n\nSpeaker 1: Jein. Sie müssen's nicht so visuell machen wie Du als User, sondern sie müssen das auch digital machen. Die haben eine Cindh ID heißt das, hast Du ja schon gehört. Ja, ja. Ja.\n\nDas ist in jedem Werk enthalten, dass man's einfach nachvollziehen kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also kann auch in den Metadaten passieren, ne, aber einfach, es muss ab 20 26 gekennzeichnet werden,\n\nSpeaker 0: ohnehin durch die Anbieter der KI Systeme. Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wenn\n\nSpeaker 2: man Systeme. Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wie sich das dann in der Praxis darstellt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Für für\n\nSpeaker 0: Bilder und Videos oder für alles?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab verstanden für alles und ich hab mich echt gefragt, wie soll\n\nSpeaker 0: der Text? Ja. Das wär jetzt nämlich auch meine Frage gewesen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich weiß.\n\nSpeaker 0: Der Text hat keine Metadaten. Aber okay, müssen wir mal das nächste Mal, wenn wir mit 'nem Anbieter von KI Systemen reden, dann noch\n\nSpeaker 2: mal nachfragen. Genau. So wie bei DeepL, wo man dann, wenn man was automatisch übersetzt, ja, dann kriegt man ja auch unten immer diesen kleinen Hinweis übersetzt mit DeepL, ja. Ja, das ist Und den löscht man dann raus und dann\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, also es gibt ja Leute, die sich 'n Geschäftsmodell daraus gemacht haben, ne, KI generierte Texte zu erkennen und so was alles, Plakatsoftware an Unis und\n\nSpeaker 1: Die werd's einfach haben, ne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gesehen. Ja, ja, das ist die Frage, ob die's dann wirklich so einfach haben oder nicht. Aber wie gesagt, das ist dann 'n Thema für eine andere Folge. Irgendwann in 20 26, wenn das da ist und wir das uns angucken können. Okay, bevor wir uns aber hier alle verabschieden, haben wir noch und ich hab von Richard gehört, dass er auf jeden Fall was am Start hat.\n\nDeswegen darf Richard anfangen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Pick of the day. Ja, bei mir kam gestern was ganz Tolles an und ich konnte es leider nicht mal aufschlagen und zwar das Sonderheft der Make 20 25 mit Ikea Hacks über Möbeltuning und wie man Sachen smart und toll macht und noch besser und viel Spaß dabei hat. Das wär mein, ohne zu wissen, was drinsteht, aber ich bin sehr gehypt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Blanko Pick of the day. Den\n\nSpeaker 1: Blanko Pick of the day, ja, viel Spaß.\n\nSpeaker 0: Musst Du auf jeden Fall mal mitbringen. Ich hab ja auch das ein oder andere IKEA Möbelstück zu Hause stehen und vielleicht kann ich da noch\n\nSpeaker 1: Die Möbel passe alle in meinem Opel Adam rein, das wird kein Problem.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nein, ich mein, das ist nicht unbedingt von den Möbeln, ich dachte, kannst Du einfach den Make mitbringen und das zeigen. Das nicht dein Hausstand durch die Gegend fahren, Richard. Wunderbar. Dann von Richard einmal die Make. Peggy, hast Du was für uns dabei?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ihr überfahrt mich 'n bisschen mit dieser Frage, aber mein wäre etwas zum Lesen, und zwar ein Buch, ein wunderbares Buch, was ich grade gelesen hab von Christoph Heim, das Narrenschiff. Und zwar erzählt es die Geschichte der DDR aus der Perspektive der politisch, Gründung bis bis Mauerfall, sehr spannendes Buch und für mich insbesondere, weil ich ja da auch gebürtig bin. Deshalb klare Leseempfehlung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist das so, ich glaub, das ist son relativ neues Genre, ne, so im Prinzip. Also ist das eine eine reelle Biografie oder ist das ein Roman? Ist 'n Roman. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: Bei alternativ denke ich immer direkt an alternative Fakten, ja. Also ich, es ist, glaube ich, tatsächlich sehr faktenbasiert, aber natürlich in Romanform eingebunden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also das ist vielleicht doch genau das, was ich meine, das ist son Genre, was ich vor 'n paar Jahren so für mich entdeckt hab. Ich hab da schon so superviele Bücher gelesen, so. 1 der letzten, was ich gelesen hab, war so die die Mondlandung aus Perspektive 1 NASA Ingenieurs, der den's halt nie gab oder so, ja, aber alles, was halt so ihn herum passiert, halt 100 Prozent real und das hätte im Prinzip alles so passieren können, das ist einfach, ich sag mal, 'n etwas unterhaltsamerer Weg, reale Geschichte irgendwie einfach darzustellen, ne. Das liest sich immer ganz bequem. Und ich weiß nicht, wer auf Apple TV, oh Gott, wie heißt das?\n\nRaumfahrtserie Apple TV Richard.\n\nSpeaker 1: The Expanse.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nein, die andere. Die\n\nSpeaker 1: finde ich aber gut.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, die ist auch gut, aber ich meinte die andere. Beyond, nein, heißt sie und die fangen ja auch an so mit, ne, wie war das Wettrennen zum Mond und so. Und das läuft einfach so ein, 2 Sachen anders als eine Möglichkeit, aber ist halt alles sehr so groundingd in History irgendwie. Ja. Oder andersrum, ich nehm das jetzt einfach als Pick.\n\nSo, das ist jetzt voll bekannt. Und Peggy hat mich darauf gemacht, Apple TV, abgefahrene Serie, das, wie gesagt, startet mit dem Rennen zum Mond und in der ersten Folge, das so viel kann man, glaube ich, spoilern, schaffen es, schafft die Sowjetunion es quasi als Erstes auf dem Mond und der Rest der Staffel geht dann eigentlich nur darum so, wie hat sich das Mondprogramm der NASA anders entwickelt aufgrund von, eine Sache ist halt irgendwie anders gelaufen, als sie wirklich gelaufen ist, und das bringt dann son Stein ins Rollen. Es ist alles nicht abgefahren, ist Science Fiction, es ist alles, hätte so passieren können, aber ist einfach nur son interessanter Take von, was, wenn ein, 2 Sachen in der Geschichte anders gelaufen wären und was hätte das für Einflüsse alles haben können, so. Ganz interessant, kann man sich mal antun auf Apple TV, for All Men. Kein, mittlerweile, glaub ich, schon, weiß nicht, 5 oder 6 Staffeln oder so richtig gut.\n\nWunderbar. Dann sind wir durch mit unserer Folge zu AI und Rechten. Erst mal danke Richard, dass Du wieder mit am Start warst.\n\nSpeaker 1: Dankeschön.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und natürlich danke Peggy, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast für uns hier, Rede und Antwort zu stehen über Deep Fakes, über KI Modelle, über Rechte und Pflichten von Anbietern und Kunden. Und wir hoffen, das hat euch da draußen mindestens genauso viel Spaß gemacht wie uns hier und euch im Idealfall noch viel weitergebracht und vielleicht ein, 2 Schritte weiter und näher zu eurem KI Produkt, an dem ihr grade grade arbeitet oder über das ihr grade nachdenkt. Falls ihr Fragen, Anregungen, Kritik, Feedback habt, dann könnt ihr gerne euch auf unserem Discord Server melden. Ihr könnt uns auf Social Media erreichen. Ihr könnt uns Kommentare schreiben auf LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter gibt's nicht mehr, aber Blues Guy und Masolon gibt's noch.\n\nIhr könnt es gerne schreiben oder ihr schreibt uns die E-Mail an Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar und damit verabschieden wir uns und hören uns in 2 Wochen wieder. Bis dann. Ciao, tschau. Tschüs.",[34977,34984,34988,34994,34999,35004,35008,35018,35025,35032,35037,35041,35052,35058,35065,35069,35075,35082,35091,35104,35108,35121,35126,35137,35150,35156,35169,35182,35188,35193,35198,35202,35215,35221,35234,35247,35259,35266,35278,35287,35298,35303,35312,35321,35326,35335,35348,35352,35357,35361,35365,35371,35377,35384,35388,35392,35396,35401,35408,35413,35417,35429,35433,35446,35450,35461,35468,35480,35486,35493,35498,35501,35505,35514,35518,35521,35525,35530,35535,35548,35555,35568,35573,35583,35596,35607,35611,35619,35631,35640,35651,35657,35661,35665,35678,35691,35695,35699,35702,35705,35717,35721,35732,35745,35753,35762,35765,35775,35787,35795,35799,35811,35824,35827,35836,35849,35857,35861,35864,35870,35877,35881,35889,35893,35906,35911,35917,35922,35926,35932,35936,35940,35944,35954,35967,35978,35987,35999,36006,36019,36031,36036,36049,36059,36069,36076,36084,36092,36098,36109,36121,36133,36138,36144,36148,36156,36164,36175,36188,36200,36209,36218,36231,36235,36239,36243,36251,36262,36266,36278,36282,36286,36294,36299,36303,36309,36315,36319,36329,36341,36348,36361,36365,36371,36375,36384,36388,36392,36396,36401,36406,36414,36418,36430,36434,36445,36457,36469,36473,36482,36486,36490,36496,36508,36519,36525,36529,36533,36537,36545,36550,36554,36558,36561,36565,36569,36574,36578,36582,36590,36594,36598,36606,36619,36623,36634,36644,36651,36655,36659,36663,36667,36670,36674,36679,36686,36692,36700,36704,36712,36716,36725,36729,36742,36747,36751,36755,36759,36763,36773,36777,36781,36789,36798,36804,36813,36817,36825,36829,36832,36837,36845,36848,36856,36866,36870,36874,36877,36885,36889,36893,36897,36901,36905,36911,36922,36933,36944,36950,36954,36964,36970,36974,36978,36984,36991,36995,37007,37011,37016,37028,37035,37043,37053,37058,37062,37067,37079,37091,37103,37110,37116,37126,37135,37139,37149,37153,37156,37160,37166,37172,37176,37180,37184,37191,37195,37201,37210,37214,37218,37230,37234,37242,37247,37251,37257,37261,37272,37280,37289,37295,37307,37311,37315,37320,37324,37335,37348,37355,37358,37370],{"sentences":34978,"speaker":205,"num_words":34983,"start":202,"end":344},[34979,34981],{"text":34980,"start":202,"end":312},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu 1 neuen Deep Dive Folge hier in der Programmierbar, für euch im Studio wie immer hier der Jan am Start und ich bin nicht alleine.",{"text":34982,"start":312,"end":344},"Ich hab nämlich hier doch den Richard zu Gast.",39,{"sentences":34985,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":344,"end":352},[34986],{"text":34987,"start":344,"end":352},"Hallo Richard.",{"sentences":34989,"speaker":205,"num_words":34993,"start":352,"end":386},[34990,34991],{"text":359,"start":352,"end":356},{"text":34992,"start":356,"end":386},"Richard, die Leute kennen dich schon aus Podcastfolgenummer.",9,{"sentences":34995,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":391,"end":402},[34996],{"text":34997,"start":391,"end":402},"Schieß mich tot.",3,{"sentences":35000,"speaker":205,"num_words":35003,"start":402,"end":451},[35001],{"text":35002,"start":402,"end":451},"Nein, das ist knapp daneben, es war die 160, ich hab aber nachgeholt.",13,{"sentences":35005,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":456,"end":466},[35006],{"text":35007,"start":456,"end":466},"Ah, sehr gut.",{"sentences":35009,"speaker":205,"num_words":35017,"start":466,"end":590},[35010,35012,35013,35015,35016],{"text":35011,"start":466,"end":497},"Ich hab mir das auch nicht auswendig gewusst.",{"text":504,"start":501,"end":502},{"text":35014,"start":502,"end":579},"Wir haben mit dir damals über Datenschutz, DSGVO und so was gesprochen, weil ich sage, wir, meine ich Dennis.",{"text":586,"start":583,"end":584},{"text":592,"start":589,"end":590},30,{"sentences":35019,"speaker":205,"num_words":35024,"start":590,"end":672},[35020,35022],{"text":35021,"start":590,"end":653},"Und die vertrauten Hörerinnen da draußen ahnen schon, wenn Richard wieder dabei ist, geht's wieder ein rechtliches Thema.",{"text":35023,"start":653,"end":672},"Richard, über was wollen wir heute sprechen?",25,{"sentences":35026,"speaker":184,"num_words":35031,"start":672,"end":693},[35027,35029],{"text":35028,"start":672,"end":685},"Heute geht's über KI.",{"text":35030,"start":689,"end":693},"Das ja.",6,{"sentences":35033,"speaker":205,"num_words":35036,"start":693,"end":711},[35034],{"text":35035,"start":693,"end":711},"Ist das 'n rechtliches Thema?",5,{"sentences":35038,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":711,"end":723},[35039],{"text":35040,"start":711,"end":723},"Ja, leider ja.",{"sentences":35042,"speaker":205,"num_words":35051,"start":723,"end":852},[35043,35045,35047,35049],{"text":35044,"start":723,"end":730},"Ah, okay.",{"text":35046,"start":734,"end":788},"Ja, und damit wir nicht damit alleine auf weiter Flur sind, haben wir uns noch einen Gast eingeladen.",{"text":35048,"start":792,"end":814},"Wir haben heute zu Gast im Studio Peggy Müller.",{"text":35050,"start":814,"end":852},"Hallo Peggy, schön, dass Du da bist und Zeit für uns hast.",41,{"sentences":35053,"speaker":857,"num_words":34993,"start":852,"end":883},[35054,35056],{"text":35055,"start":852,"end":874},"Hallo, freu mich sehr über die Einladung.",{"text":35057,"start":874,"end":883},"Vielen Dank.",{"sentences":35059,"speaker":205,"num_words":35064,"start":886,"end":968},[35060,35062],{"text":35061,"start":886,"end":910},"Wir freuen uns, dass Du die Einladung angenommen hast.",{"text":35063,"start":910,"end":968},"Du bist Anwältin bei Advant BYTON und über die Firma sozusagen zu uns gekommen, Richard, nicht wahr?",26,{"sentences":35066,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":968,"end":982},[35067],{"text":35068,"start":968,"end":982},"Über Lotrum, genau.",{"sentences":35070,"speaker":205,"num_words":35074,"start":986,"end":1031},[35071,35072],{"text":990,"start":986,"end":987},{"text":35073,"start":992,"end":1031},"Peggy, was machst Du, wenn Du nicht im Podcaststudio sitzt den ganzen Tag?",14,{"sentences":35076,"speaker":857,"num_words":35081,"start":1031,"end":1245},[35077,35079],{"text":35078,"start":1031,"end":1120},"Dann sitz ich in meinem tollen Büro in der Frankfurter Innenstadt und beschäftige mich hauptsächlich mit Fragen des gewerblichen Rechtsschutzes oder besser gesagt IP Recht.",{"text":35080,"start":1124,"end":1245},"Das beinhaltet Urheberrechte, Markenrechte auch mal Designrechte und auch KI Lösungen, KI Fragen und inzwischen auch 'n Großteil IT Sicherheit, Fragen zu NIS 2, falls euch das was sagt und ähnliche Abkürzungen, ja.",58,{"sentences":35083,"speaker":205,"num_words":35090,"start":1247,"end":1526},[35084,35086,35088],{"text":35085,"start":1247,"end":1430},"Ich hab mir vor dieser Folge mal den Spaß gemacht, auf LinkedIn zu schauen, wer von den ganzen Leuten, die damals mit mir Rechtswissenschaft studiert haben, was die so alles machen mittlerweile und da war eine ganz große Bandbreite dabei von Immobilien, Arbeitsrecht, Umwelt, Presse, internationales Handelsrecht, maritiimes Recht war auch dabei, fand ich auch irgendwie superspannend.",{"text":35087,"start":1430,"end":1451},"So, also Leute sind sehr breit aufgestellt.",{"text":35089,"start":1455,"end":1526},"Was hat dich dazu gebracht, genau diesen Bereich auszusuchen, wenn es offensichtlich son riesen weites Feld ist, aus dem man wählen kann?",86,{"sentences":35092,"speaker":857,"num_words":35103,"start":1529,"end":2045},[35093,35095,35097,35099,35101],{"text":35094,"start":1529,"end":1560},"Also im Studium hatt ich tatsächlich keine Berührungspunkte damit.",{"text":35096,"start":1560,"end":1799},"Ich hab mir aber direkt nach dem ersten Staatsexamen die Frage gestellt oder ich wollte promovieren und dann hab ich mir son bisschen die Professoren bei uns an der Uni angeschaut und hab da einfach, ich werd mal ich werd mal vorstellig bei dem Professor Fehlsser seiner Zeit und da bin ich hin, hatte mir 'n Thema ausgesucht und prompt bin ich da gelandet und so bin ich dann auch diesem Thema, was mich dann so reingezogen hat, auch treu geblieben, ja?",{"text":35098,"start":1799,"end":1822},"Das ist 'n überschaubarer Bereich, ja?",{"text":35100,"start":1825,"end":1934},"Also ich hab tatsächlich eine Ausbildung bei der Steuerberater gemacht und Steuerrecht war immer so 'n Thema, wo ich dachte, oh Gott, das sind so viele Fallstricke, da kann man einfach so viel daneben tappen und falsch machen.",{"text":35102,"start":1938,"end":2045},"Dann bin ich soeben tatsächlich beim gewerblichen Rechtsschutz gelandet, hab dann ja auch im Referendariat mit dem treu geblieben und hab dann in so 'ner kleinen IP Boutique angefangen und dann ganz lange bei Nintendo gearbeitet.",171,{"sentences":35105,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":2048,"end":2061},[35106],{"text":35107,"start":2048,"end":2061},"Was macht man da bei Nintendo?",{"sentences":35109,"speaker":857,"num_words":35120,"start":2065,"end":2444},[35110,35112,35114,35116,35118],{"text":35111,"start":2065,"end":2231},"In der Rechtsabteilung, unter anderem die ja also wir haben Nintendo hat relativ viele Rechtsstreitigkeiten geführt in dem Bereich, also ja, alles vertraulich, aber unter anderem Designstreitigkeiten, auch Patentstreitigkeiten und die betreut die Rechtsabteilung intern, eben zu schauen, was gibt's für Auswirkungen für den Fall des Urteile eben zulasten des Unternehmens ausgehen?",{"text":35113,"start":2231,"end":2257},"Was muss da im Vorfeld eventuell implementiert werden?",{"text":35115,"start":2261,"end":2341},"Und genau, da gucken wir und was natürlich auch viel gemacht wird, ist im Vorfeld die die Spiele, neue Designs, das läuft ganz viel durch die Rechtsabteilung, ja?",{"text":35117,"start":2341,"end":2421},"Wenn's da Fragen gibt zu, beispielsweise darf man in 'nem Mario Kart Spiel zum Beispiel über den Luffel drüberfahren und Ähnliches, ja?",{"text":35119,"start":2421,"end":2444},"Also das sind so Fragen, die dann auf dem Schreibtisch",120,{"sentences":35122,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":2448,"end":2464},[35123,35124],{"text":2452,"start":2448,"end":2449},{"text":35125,"start":2449,"end":2464},"Ich würd da hätten",{"sentences":35127,"speaker":205,"num_words":35136,"start":2464,"end":2611},[35128,35130,35132,35134],{"text":35129,"start":2464,"end":2513},"wir auch noch Folge drüber machen können, was Aber wir wollen ja eigentlich Text.",{"text":35131,"start":2517,"end":2524},"Immer gerne.",{"text":35133,"start":2524,"end":2587},"Aber wir wollen ja heute eigentlich über AI reden und deshalb meine Einstiegsfrage zum Thema AI an euch beide und Peggy darf anfangen.",{"text":35135,"start":2590,"end":2611},"Hat AI dein Leben leichter oder schwerer gemacht?",47,{"sentences":35138,"speaker":857,"num_words":35149,"start":2615,"end":2965},[35139,35141,35143,35145,35147],{"text":35140,"start":2615,"end":2628},"Puh, was für eine Einstiegsfrage.",{"text":35142,"start":2631,"end":2652},"Also privat erleichtert mein Leben definitiv.",{"text":35144,"start":2655,"end":2803},"Ich nutze es wirklich sehr viel für viele Anfragen, für viele Themen, wo ich mir 'n ersten Überblick verschaffen will, wo ich nicht so mitbewandert bin, ja, also einfach schnell 'n Überblick zu bekommen, ja, bei Reisebuchungen, mir da eine Reiserote raussuchen, ähnliches, also wirklich top.",{"text":35146,"start":2806,"end":2899},"In unserem Kanzleialltag ist es natürlich 'n bisschen schwieriger, weil wir da noch aktuell in der Testphase sind bei vielen bei vielen Modellen und uns das noch genauer anschauen, was wir denn tatsächlich da implementieren.",{"text":35148,"start":2902,"end":2965},"Also ich geh davon aus, dass wir da auch bald bald Tools in der Anwendung haben, die unser Leben auch da sehr erleichtern werden.",116,{"sentences":35151,"speaker":205,"num_words":35155,"start":2969,"end":2992},[35152,35153],{"text":2973,"start":2969,"end":2970},{"text":35154,"start":2975,"end":2992},"Richard, wie sieht's in deinem Leben aus?",8,{"sentences":35157,"speaker":184,"num_words":35168,"start":2996,"end":3167},[35158,35160,35162,35164,35166],{"text":35159,"start":2996,"end":3002},"Überwiegend leichter.",{"text":35161,"start":3006,"end":3079},"Also Neugier zu stillen, immer jederzeit noch schneller auf Informationen, die so formatiert sind, ne, wie man's sammle zu kommen, mega.",{"text":35163,"start":3083,"end":3102},"Und auch die Befähigung, die man hat.",{"text":35165,"start":3102,"end":3119},"Also man kann so viel mehr machen.",{"text":35167,"start":3119,"end":3167},"Ich als Nichtentwickler kann einfacher entwickeln, obwohl ich weiß, mein Code ist dann halt vielleicht Wegwerfcode.",53,{"sentences":35170,"speaker":184,"num_words":35181,"start":3171,"end":3385},[35171,35173,35175,35177,35179],{"text":35172,"start":3171,"end":3204},"Aber ich kann halt ausprobieren und schauen oder, ne, mir das erklären lassen.",{"text":35174,"start":3208,"end":3236},"Das find ich großartig, aber es kommt natürlich mit Herausforderungen.",{"text":35176,"start":3240,"end":3253},"Also Frustmomente gibt es sehr.",{"text":35178,"start":3253,"end":3364},"Ich hadere auch noch ganz viel mit mit Stimme, dass das immer mit alles klar antwortet und dann der Rest kommt und dass das immer so freundschaftliche Vibes ausstattet, obwohl ich vielleicht einfach nur einen Rezept oder eine Checkliste haben will.",{"text":35180,"start":3368,"end":3385},"Ja, das stört mich persönlich dann auch.",76,{"sentences":35183,"speaker":184,"num_words":246,"start":3385,"end":3423},[35184,35186],{"text":35185,"start":3385,"end":3401},"Aber ey, das sind Luxusthemen.",{"text":35187,"start":3405,"end":3423},"Ich bin, ich finde, sehr viel einfacher.",{"sentences":35189,"speaker":205,"num_words":35192,"start":3426,"end":3473},[35190],{"text":35191,"start":3426,"end":3473},"Und rein beruflich, durch die ganzen Themen, die Du jetzt damit aufm Schreibtisch hast, einfacher oder schwerer?",17,{"sentences":35194,"speaker":184,"num_words":35197,"start":3476,"end":3540},[35195],{"text":35196,"start":3476,"end":3540},"Also rein beruflich, wenn ich jetzt gesamtheitlich betrachte, was die Chancen betrifft, immer noch sehr viel einfacher, aber ja, es kommt mit Herausforderungen.",23,{"sentences":35199,"speaker":205,"num_words":857,"start":3542,"end":3547},[35200],{"text":35201,"start":3542,"end":3547},"Zum Beispiel?",{"sentences":35203,"speaker":184,"num_words":35214,"start":3550,"end":3776},[35204,35206,35208,35210,35212],{"text":35205,"start":3550,"end":3591},"Zum Beispiel, das die große Frage, die ich mir heute mitgebracht hab, ist so Transparenzpflichten.",{"text":35207,"start":3596,"end":3613},"Wann ist etwas ein Deep Fake?",{"text":35209,"start":3613,"end":3630},"Wann muss man es irgendwie kenntlich machen?",{"text":35211,"start":3635,"end":3665},"Welche Ausnahmen gibt es da und so was in diese Richtung?",{"text":35213,"start":3665,"end":3776},"Finde ich sehr spannend, weil ja, wir werden alle mit Channel arbeiten, ob's mit Bilderstellung, Texterstellung, ob man eine E-Mail schreibt, ob man, ne, irgendwelche Assets generiert oder ob man 'n Code damit schreibt.",73,{"sentences":35216,"speaker":184,"num_words":35074,"start":3776,"end":3812},[35217,35219],{"text":35218,"start":3776,"end":3799},"Was darf ich eigentlich damit und wann darf ich das?",{"text":35220,"start":3799,"end":3812},"Sind sehr spannende Fragestellungen.",{"sentences":35222,"speaker":205,"num_words":35233,"start":3815,"end":4134},[35223,35225,35227,35229,35231],{"text":35224,"start":3815,"end":3887},"Wir wollten uns ja diesem Thema widmen, weil das tatsächlich auch was ist, wofür wir immer mal wieder Zuschriften, Meldungen aus der Community und so weiter erhalten.",{"text":35226,"start":3890,"end":4022},"Und das, was Du grade so als selbstverständlich im Prinzip schon so wieder geben hast, ja, wir arbeiten hier alle mit General und wir generieren hier Grafiken und Texte und da, das ist ja längst nicht in jeder Firma da draußen so oder in jedem Betrieb da draußen so.",{"text":35228,"start":4026,"end":4069},"Was glaubst Du, macht das uns besonders einfach oder wieso können wir einfach so diese Tools nutzen?",{"text":35230,"start":4069,"end":4099},"Oder sollten wir diese Tools vielleicht einfach so nutzen oder vielleicht auch nicht?",{"text":35232,"start":4099,"end":4134},"Was sind so die Abwägungen, die man da treffen muss aus deiner Sicht?",119,{"sentences":35235,"speaker":184,"num_words":35246,"start":4137,"end":4286},[35236,35238,35240,35242,35244],{"text":35237,"start":4137,"end":4157},"Also ich seh da 2 große Elemente.",{"text":35239,"start":4161,"end":4177},"Erst mal, es ist eine Veränderung.",{"text":35241,"start":4181,"end":4201},"Mit Veränderungen klarzukommen dauert Zeit.",{"text":35243,"start":4201,"end":4223},"Also ich guck jetzt erst mal aufs Menschliche.",{"text":35245,"start":4226,"end":4286},"Wenn ich etwas immer in einem in einem Weg gegangen bin, warum sollte ich's jetzt anders machen, wenn's doch schon gut funktioniert?",48,{"sentences":35248,"speaker":184,"num_words":35233,"start":4289,"end":4603},[35249,35251,35253,35255,35257],{"text":35250,"start":4289,"end":4343},"Und dann seh ich da erst mal keine Potenziale, sondern nur natürlich nur Anpassungen und das wird Fehler auslösen und so weiter.",{"text":35252,"start":4347,"end":4356},"Und das ist unbequem.",{"text":35254,"start":4360,"end":4434},"Und das Zweite ist auch, je nachdem, in welcher Branche man ist, ist man vielleicht risikoaverser oder risikoaffiner oder hat mehr Risiken oder hat halt weniger Risiken.",{"text":35256,"start":4437,"end":4552},"Also ich würd nicht jedem empfehlen, sofort alles mit KI zu machen, nur weil's KI ist, aber ich seh das schon als einen technologischen Fortschritt, den niemand aufhalten kann und es wird alles viel mehr in diese Richtung gehen und diese Potenziale werden genutzt werden.",{"text":35258,"start":4554,"end":4603},"Ja, und jetzt müssen wir aber irgendwie herausfinden, wann darf ich denn überhaupt was nutzen und was muss ich dabei beachten?",{"sentences":35260,"speaker":205,"num_words":35265,"start":4606,"end":4730},[35261,35263],{"text":35262,"start":4606,"end":4614},"Auf rausfinden.",{"text":35264,"start":4617,"end":4730},"Peggy, wie sehr glüht bei euch das Telefon, weil die Leute anrufen und fragen, meine Mitarbeiter wollen hier dieses und jenes nutzen und dürfen die das überhaupt und muss ich mir jetzt Sorgen machen und womit kommen die Leute so zu euch?",44,{"sentences":35267,"speaker":857,"num_words":912,"start":4733,"end":4940},[35268,35270,35272,35274,35276],{"text":35269,"start":4733,"end":4758},"Also wir haben tatsächlich eine ganze Reihe an KI Anfragen.",{"text":35271,"start":4762,"end":4786},"Überwiegend geht's den Einsatz von Chatbots auf Webseiten.",{"text":35273,"start":4790,"end":4854},"Also das würd ich sagen, das ist so der Haupt 1 der Hauptanwendungsfälle, gibt aber auch tatsächlich, also wirklich die ganze Bandbreite, ne.",{"text":35275,"start":4854,"end":4925},"Schulungen für Mitarbeiter bis hin zu KI Richtlinien über auch Transaktionen in dem Bereich, die Frage, welche Datensätze darf ich denn wie nutzen?",{"text":35277,"start":4928,"end":4940},"Und also wirklich das ganze Bandbreite.",{"sentences":35279,"speaker":205,"num_words":35286,"start":4943,"end":5106},[35280,35282,35284],{"text":35281,"start":4943,"end":4991},"Und muss ich mir das so vorstellen, dass die Leute wirklich proaktiv zurecht kommen und dann schon so fragen?",{"text":35283,"start":4991,"end":5041},"Also hier, meine Mitarbeiter würden gerne, weiß nicht, benutzen und wir würden gerne mal abklären, wie das läuft.",{"text":35285,"start":5045,"end":5106},"Oder kommen die meistens erst, wenn das Kind in den Brunnen gefallen ist und jetzt noch zu klären ist, wie schlimm ist der Schaden?",61,{"sentences":35288,"speaker":857,"num_words":35297,"start":5109,"end":5354},[35289,35291,35292,35293,35295],{"text":35290,"start":5109,"end":5138},"Wir haben unsere Mandanten, glaub ich, ganz gut erzogen.",{"text":5144,"start":5138,"end":5142},{"text":5149,"start":5142,"end":5147},{"text":35294,"start":5151,"end":5260},"Die die meisten Mandanten, die wir haben, sind ja tatsächlich Unternehmen, ja, sodass wir natürlich 'n Großteil mit Rechtsabteilungen zusammenarbeiten oder ich sag mal so Geschäftsführerebene Und die wissen die Problematiken und die kommen in der Regel frühzeitig.",{"text":35296,"start":5265,"end":5354},"Möglicherweise auch aus den Erfahrungen, die man so mit der DSGVO gemacht hat, ja, wo alle sich eigentlich, glaub ich, 'n bisschen zu spät drum gekümmert haben und dann die Panik groß war.",82,{"sentences":35299,"speaker":857,"num_words":35302,"start":5358,"end":5411},[35300],{"text":35301,"start":5358,"end":5411},"Deshalb haben wir überwiegend wenig aus dem Brunnen zu holen, sondern sind mehr an der präventiven Front unterwegs.",18,{"sentences":35304,"speaker":205,"num_words":35311,"start":5414,"end":5644},[35305,35307,35309],{"text":35306,"start":5414,"end":5525},"Und wenn ihr mit euren Mandanten darüber sprecht, wie KI einzuführen ist und wir das begleiten könnt, ist da dein Eindruck oder hast Du da Einsicht von, ob das mehr so ein top down oder son Bottom up Prozess ist?",{"text":35308,"start":5525,"end":5581},"Also ist das was, wo die Geschäftsführung ankommt und sagt, okay, wir wir wollen uns jetzt, wir machen jetzt auch KI.",{"text":35310,"start":5581,"end":5644},"So, alle da draußen machen KI, wir machen jetzt auch KI oder ist das mehr so aus einzelnen Abteilungen oder von Mitarbeitern getrieben?",84,{"sentences":35313,"speaker":857,"num_words":35320,"start":5647,"end":5804},[35314,35316,35318],{"text":35315,"start":5647,"end":5655},"Es gibt beides.",{"text":35317,"start":5658,"end":5737},"Ich würde schon sagen, dass die Geschäftsleitung sich natürlich möglicherweise auch aufgrund der eigenen Nutzung der KI Tools darüber in der Gefahr ist, dass man's eben nicht vermeiden kann.",{"text":35319,"start":5737,"end":5804},"Viele sind ja auch proaktiv unterwegs und unterstützen das und fragen sich dann eben, was muss ich genau tun, das eben rechtssicher zu einzusetzen?",56,{"sentences":35322,"speaker":205,"num_words":35325,"start":5808,"end":5889},[35323],{"text":35324,"start":5808,"end":5889},"Und gibt es da so die Standard 1, 2, 3 Fallstricke, über die die meisten stolpern oder den den Standardrat, den ihr den allermeisten da schon mitgeben könnt an der Stelle?",31,{"sentences":35327,"speaker":857,"num_words":35334,"start":5892,"end":6136},[35328,35330,35332],{"text":35329,"start":5892,"end":5967},"Der Standardrat würde ich sagen, frühzeitig damit beschäftigen und auch die Mitarbeiter frühzeitig schulen und nicht nicht zu lange warten, sondern es als ein Fakt ansehen.",{"text":35331,"start":5971,"end":6012},"Ich hab irgendwo mal gehört, KI ist gekommen, zu bleiben und das seh ich genauso.",{"text":35333,"start":6015,"end":6136},"Das wird nicht weggehen, nur weil man sich jetzt wegduckt und als Unternehmen sich nicht darum kümmert, sondern es ist sicherer aus unserer Perspektive zu sagen, gut, wir müssen uns dem stellen und wir gucken, was sind die Maßnahmen, die eben dafür erforderlich sind?",85,{"sentences":35336,"speaker":205,"num_words":35347,"start":6140,"end":6518},[35337,35339,35341,35343,35345],{"text":35338,"start":6140,"end":6226},"Und mit welchen, ich weiß nicht, ob Sorgen das das richtige Wort ist, das klingt ja schon so negativ, aber aus welcher Perspektive vielleicht kommen die meisten eurer Mandanten dann auf euch zu?",{"text":35340,"start":6226,"end":6325},"Ist das eher so, ich sag mal, Anbieter facing Datenschutz mit, oh, diese ganzen KI Anbieter, die sitzen ja in den USA und dann gehen da meine Daten hin und was muss da irgendwie beachten?",{"text":35342,"start":6327,"end":6396},"Oder sind das eher so Fragen des Urheberrechts, weil meine Mitarbeiter erzeugen jetzt unsere ganzen Katalogbilder nur noch mit ChatGPT und können und dürfen wir das überhaupt?",{"text":35344,"start":6400,"end":6489},"Oder sind das eher Fragen, weil sie vielleicht selber KI Modelle betreiben, trainieren, feintunen, wie auch immer wollen und dann fragen, woher kommen wir an die Daten und was dürfen wir damit machen und so?",{"text":35346,"start":6489,"end":6518},"Also, was ist da so die der Winkel da drauf?",140,{"sentences":35349,"speaker":857,"num_words":35003,"start":6522,"end":6556},[35350],{"text":35351,"start":6522,"end":6556},"Also eine meiner ersten KI Anfragen war tatsächlich von Richard und zwar zum",{"sentences":35353,"speaker":205,"num_words":35356,"start":6558,"end":6588},[35354],{"text":35355,"start":6558,"end":6588},"Der Lotung wieder ganz vorne mit dabei, muss man jetzt einfach",11,{"sentences":35358,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":6591,"end":6595},[35359],{"text":35360,"start":6591,"end":6595},"Ganz vorne.",{"sentences":35362,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":6599,"end":6610},[35363],{"text":35364,"start":6599,"end":6610},"Was hab ich denn gefunden?",{"sentences":35366,"speaker":857,"num_words":35246,"start":6610,"end":6745},[35367,35369],{"text":35368,"start":6610,"end":6621},"Ganz vorne mit dabei.",{"text":35370,"start":6621,"end":6745},"Ihr habt damals gefragt, inwieweit das möglich ist, eben Rätsel auch mithilfe von KI zu generieren und die Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss und wo da die Fallstricke sind und ob man gegebenenfalls in die Haftung kommt und so weiter, ja.",{"sentences":35372,"speaker":184,"num_words":35003,"start":6745,"end":6788},[35373,35375],{"text":35374,"start":6745,"end":6772},"Ja, wieder Fragen oder Bilderwetzelt oder was war das?",{"text":35376,"start":6775,"end":6788},"Keine Ahnung von Reden.",{"sentences":35378,"speaker":857,"num_words":35383,"start":6788,"end":6807},[35379,35381],{"text":35380,"start":6788,"end":6797},"Fragen, Kindergarten.",{"text":35382,"start":6797,"end":6807},"Nee, redtexturra.",4,{"sentences":35385,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":6807,"end":6816},[35386],{"text":35387,"start":6807,"end":6816},"Es ging",{"sentences":35389,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":6816,"end":6823},[35390],{"text":35391,"start":6816,"end":6823},"nicht Bilder.",{"sentences":35393,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":6823,"end":6829},[35394],{"text":35395,"start":6823,"end":6829},"Nee, es",{"sentences":35397,"speaker":857,"num_words":35400,"start":6829,"end":6922},[35398],{"text":35399,"start":6829,"end":6922},"ging nicht Bilder, sondern es ging tatsächlich Fragen und die entsprechenden Antworten und wie weit man das prüfen muss, ob ob die Antworten richtig sind, was denn passiert, wenn die Antworten eventuell falsch sind und und und.",37,{"sentences":35402,"speaker":205,"num_words":35407,"start":6922,"end":7000},[35403,35405],{"text":35404,"start":6922,"end":6966},"Das ist ja ein guter, ich jetzt kann's Richard fragen, wo wir damals aufgepasst hat.",{"text":35406,"start":6966,"end":7000},"Richard, wie ist es denn, wenn Du jetzt so Fragen generieren lassen?",27,{"sentences":35409,"speaker":184,"num_words":35412,"start":7000,"end":7109},[35410],{"text":35411,"start":7000,"end":7109},"Ich glaube, es ging, wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, jetzt kommt's wieder, danke, User generated content, also Spieler*innen sollten in der Lage sein, Thema anzugeben und zu ihrem Thema sollten dann Fragen generiert werden.",34,{"sentences":35414,"speaker":205,"num_words":34998,"start":7112,"end":7120},[35415],{"text":35416,"start":7112,"end":7120},"Ich erinner mich.",{"sentences":35418,"speaker":184,"num_words":35325,"start":7120,"end":7211},[35419,35421,35423,35425,35427],{"text":35420,"start":7120,"end":7137},"Aber das Problem sind natürlich Halluzinationen.",{"text":35422,"start":7141,"end":7152},"Was, wenn's nicht korrekt ist?",{"text":35424,"start":7152,"end":7182},"Was, wenn da anderes Zeug rauskommt, was man nicht haben will?",{"text":35426,"start":7186,"end":7196},"Muss man das kennzeichnen?",{"text":35428,"start":7200,"end":7211},"Wie kann man das kennzeichnen?",{"sentences":35430,"speaker":184,"num_words":217,"start":7213,"end":7235},[35431],{"text":35432,"start":7213,"end":7235},"Also all diese Fragen, glaub ich, waren so die ersten.",{"sentences":35434,"speaker":205,"num_words":35445,"start":7239,"end":7490},[35435,35437,35439,35441,35443],{"text":35436,"start":7239,"end":7265},"Okay, aber dann lass uns doch bei dem Beispiel bleiben.",{"text":35438,"start":7265,"end":7320},"Also wir haben jetzt hier eine nicht Quizplanet genannte generische Quiz App, sagen wir mal, die wir bauen wollen würden.",{"text":35440,"start":7324,"end":7384},"Und ich will mir jetzt 1000 Fragen dafür generieren lassen, weil ich zu faul bin, sie selber zu schreiben und ich würd das gerne automatisieren.",{"text":35442,"start":7387,"end":7398},"Erst mal, darf ich das?",{"text":35444,"start":7398,"end":7490},"So, ich ich frag so als als ganz einfache Laie so, kann ich mir mit AI Content generieren lassen und dann dafür Geld verlangen, auch wenn ich da gar nicht selber Arbeit reingesteckt hab?",94,{"sentences":35447,"speaker":205,"num_words":34993,"start":7490,"end":7515},[35448],{"text":35449,"start":7490,"end":7515},"Kann kann ich da trotzdem mitmachen, was ich will?",{"sentences":35451,"speaker":184,"num_words":35460,"start":7517,"end":7656},[35452,35454,35456,35458],{"text":35453,"start":7517,"end":7549},"Mir fällt nichts Entgegensprechendes für diesen Use Case ein.",{"text":35455,"start":7549,"end":7585},"Es gibt natürlich andere Problemfelder, die grundsätzlich untersagt sind, mit KI zu machen.",{"text":35457,"start":7585,"end":7610},"Also wenn's Fragen geht, glaub ich, ist weniger ein Problem.",{"text":35459,"start":7613,"end":7656},"Wenn's irgendwie Emotionserkennung, Gesichtserkennung, mir fällt jetzt nicht alle alles, was man da fragt.",46,{"sentences":35462,"speaker":205,"num_words":35467,"start":7656,"end":7827},[35463,35465],{"text":35464,"start":7656,"end":7790},"Ja, ich meine tatsächlich so jetzt auf reiner Content eben, ne, weil immerhin ist da jetzt, weiß ich nicht, ChatGPT hat mir 1000 Quizfragen erstellt und jetzt könnte er morgen OpenAI bei mir anklopfen und sagen so, sind ja meine Quizfragen, die hat ja meinen ChanningPity für mich erstellt.",{"text":35466,"start":7795,"end":7827},"Gib mir mal bitte hier deinen deinen Gewinn von deiner App irgendwie ab.",62,{"sentences":35469,"speaker":184,"num_words":35233,"start":7830,"end":8153},[35470,35472,35474,35476,35478],{"text":35471,"start":7830,"end":7843},"Ich glaube, das kann nicht passieren.",{"text":35473,"start":7846,"end":7912},"Das das ist, also der erste Schritt ist natürlich die Vereinbarung, was ist Teil der Leistung mit dem Anbieter, mit 'nem KI Anbieter, ne.",{"text":35475,"start":7912,"end":7964},"Und da wär vielleicht im Vornherein wichtig, man nimmt nicht das kostenlose persönliche, den persönlichen Zugang.",{"text":35477,"start":7964,"end":8015},"Also ich will für Allgemeine jetzt nicht nur auf einen Anbieter, weil da oft andere Konditionen drin sind, ne.",{"text":35479,"start":8015,"end":8153},"Also wenn man den bezahlten Dienst macht, da muss man natürlich in die Details gucken, das kann man jetzt pauschal nicht beantworten, dann hat man da eine Sicherheit, dass nichts mit den eigenen Daten trainiert wird, was für viele wichtig ist, wenn man da doch irgendwelche Unternehmen eine Geheimnisse oder so was preisgeben will.",{"sentences":35481,"speaker":184,"num_words":34983,"start":8155,"end":8258},[35482,35484],{"text":35483,"start":8155,"end":8214},"Das wär schon in 'ner ersten Stelle sehr wichtig, ohne dass wir überhaupt in Datenschutz, KI Verordnung, Urheberrecht IP insgesamt irgendwie reinrutschen.",{"text":35485,"start":8217,"end":8258},"Und auf jeden Fall ein sehr wichtiger Tipp, wenn man das in egal welcher Form machen will.",{"sentences":35487,"speaker":205,"num_words":35492,"start":8260,"end":8306},[35488,35490],{"text":35489,"start":8260,"end":8275},"Ist vielleicht generell 'n guter Tipp.",{"text":35491,"start":8275,"end":8306},"So AGBs lesen von den Diensten, die man irgendwie nutzt.",16,{"sentences":35494,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":8310,"end":8322},[35495,35496],{"text":592,"start":8310,"end":8311},{"text":35497,"start":8314,"end":8322},"Wird oft nicht gemacht.",{"sentences":35499,"speaker":184,"num_words":35383,"start":8322,"end":8333},[35500],{"text":35497,"start":8322,"end":8333},{"sentences":35502,"speaker":857,"num_words":35155,"start":8333,"end":8357},[35503],{"text":35504,"start":8333,"end":8357},"Also schadet nicht, das zu wiederholen, diesen Tipp.",{"sentences":35506,"speaker":205,"num_words":35513,"start":8359,"end":8497},[35507,35509,35511],{"text":35508,"start":8359,"end":8364},"Das ist richtig.",{"text":35510,"start":8367,"end":8418},"Okay, jetzt hab ich also meine 1000 Fragen und jetzt, weil KI natürlich nicht perfekt ist, sind von den 1000 Fragen 200 falsch.",{"text":35512,"start":8421,"end":8497},"Bin ich da, Peggy, irgendwie haftbar zu machen, wenn meine Quiz App jetzt da draußen in der Welt ist und behauptet, der Zweite Weltkrieg hat in den Siebzigerjahren stattgefunden?",55,{"sentences":35515,"speaker":857,"num_words":35024,"start":8500,"end":8572},[35516],{"text":35517,"start":8500,"end":8572},"Also Du könntest in dem Fall deinen App, deinen Käufern, wenn's bezahlter Content ist, ja, könntest Du gegenüber haftbar sein aufgrund der vertraglichen Pflichtverletzungen, ja,",{"sentences":35519,"speaker":205,"num_words":184,"start":8572,"end":8575},[35520],{"text":556,"start":8572,"end":8575},{"sentences":35522,"speaker":857,"num_words":35090,"start":8575,"end":8818},[35523],{"text":35524,"start":8575,"end":8818},"Du lieferst eine App, die einfach nur Mist erzählt, ja, oder falsche Antworten gibt, ja, dann ist die Frage, ne, Du willst ja eine App haben, die funktioniert und die dich auch inhaltlich weiterbringt oder die, die dir zumindest dich zum Denken anregt und und Du dann auch am Ergebnis die richtige Antwort zu, dass ich mir da vorstellen könnte, dass man tatsächlich hier das als mangelhaftes Produkt ansehen würde, wo Du unter Umständen die Möglichkeit hast, den Kaufpreis so es den einen gibt, zurückzuverlangen, ja.",{"sentences":35526,"speaker":205,"num_words":35529,"start":8818,"end":8974},[35527],{"text":35528,"start":8818,"end":8974},"Und ich kann mich als App Macher an der Stelle nicht darauf berufen, dass er mein, also mein AI Anbieter ja auch eine Fürsorgepflicht hat, dafür zu sorgen, dass das alles richtig ist und ich mich einfach blind auf den verlassen hab, sondern ich muss da selber schon auch noch mal eine gewisse, Sind wir wieder bei den AGBs, die man lesen muss.",63,{"sentences":35531,"speaker":184,"num_words":34993,"start":8974,"end":8997},[35532,35533],{"text":592,"start":8974,"end":8978},{"text":35534,"start":8978,"end":8997},"Auf die eigenen AGBs, die man schreiben muss.",{"sentences":35536,"speaker":857,"num_words":35547,"start":8997,"end":9410},[35537,35539,35541,35543,35545],{"text":35538,"start":8997,"end":9014},"Genau, die kommen auch noch dazu.",{"text":35540,"start":9018,"end":9118},"Weiß dich ja auch drauf hin, dass eben Fehler passieren können, ja, und dass Du doch bitte selbst noch mal die Überprüfung vornimmst, ob dieser Content denn zutrifft oder nicht, ja, sodass die Verantwortung da tatsächlich bei dir liegt.",{"text":35542,"start":9118,"end":9208},"Also dass Du, man kann natürlich mal drüber nachdenken, ob's dann irgendwelche Ansprüche dir gegenüber dem dem Anbieter des, nehmen wir Open AI oder 'n anderes Large Language Models geben könnte.",{"text":35544,"start":9212,"end":9256},"Ja, kommt dann eben auch wieder auf den Vertrag drauf an, den Du mit denen geschlossen hast, ne.",{"text":35546,"start":9256,"end":9410},"Also kritisch wird's aus meiner Sicht am ehesten dann, wenn wenn wir jetzt Beispiel nehmen, was Richard grade erwähnte, dass Du dass Du sagst, ich möchte ausschließen, dass Daten, beispielsweise Daten der Nutzer zum Training benutzt werden, uns passiert dann doch, dann bist Du als datenschutzrechtlich Verantwortlicher ja gegenüber deinen Nutzern verantwortlich.",146,{"sentences":35549,"speaker":857,"num_words":35554,"start":9414,"end":9499},[35550,35552],{"text":35551,"start":9414,"end":9443},"Hast aber dann hast aber dann eben die Problematik, ne, es ist trainiert.",{"text":35553,"start":9443,"end":9499},"Also sprich, es gibt dann irgendwo 'n Löschungsanspruch und da müsste man sich mal überlegen, ob man das weiterreichen könnte.",33,{"sentences":35556,"speaker":184,"num_words":35567,"start":9501,"end":9836},[35557,35559,35561,35563,35565],{"text":35558,"start":9501,"end":9517},"Ich hätt da noch was zu ergänzen.",{"text":35560,"start":9521,"end":9544},"Also eben ganz wichtig, was verspricht man selber den Usern?",{"text":35562,"start":9547,"end":9577},"Was steht in den Eigendefinitionen der Leistung, die man erbringen wird?",{"text":35564,"start":9577,"end":9684},"Also auch da wieder AGB oder halt im im Programm, in der Software selber nicht mal das, wenn man von sich gibt, bei uns gibt es 100 Prozent richtige Quizfragen, alle geprüft, dann ist man natürlich, hat man 'n Problem.",{"text":35566,"start":9686,"end":9836},"Aber wenn man offen tut, hey, wir haben hier eine tolle Sache, Du kannst deine eigenen Quizfragen generieren lassen mit 1 KI, Achtung, es ist eine KI, es kann natürlich Ungenauigkeiten beinhalten, aber Du kannst trotzdem mehr mit Spaß haben und meistens ist richtig, das muss man nicht dazuschreiben, aber dann ist es ja okay.",123,{"sentences":35569,"speaker":184,"num_words":35572,"start":9839,"end":9856},[35570],{"text":35571,"start":9839,"end":9856},"Ja, da hat man dieses Risiko mitigiert.",7,{"sentences":35574,"speaker":205,"num_words":35467,"start":9860,"end":10036},[35575,35576,35577,35579,35581],{"text":586,"start":9860,"end":9861},{"text":586,"start":9865,"end":9866},{"text":35578,"start":9868,"end":9904},"Aber also, das sind ja 2 unterschiedliche Fälle, die Du gerade beschrieben hast.",{"text":35580,"start":9904,"end":9955},"Ne, das eine ist, ich nutze KI selber, mein Produkt zu entwickeln, aufzufüllen, weiterzubauen, wie auch immer.",{"text":35582,"start":9958,"end":10036},"Und das andere ist ja, ich biete selber irgend eine Art von KI Feature meinen eigenen Usern an, wo ich ja dann quasi der der Anbieter auch auch werde, ja.",{"sentences":35584,"speaker":205,"num_words":35595,"start":10039,"end":10547},[35585,35587,35589,35591,35593],{"text":35586,"start":10039,"end":10151},"Und jetzt ist natürlich dieser dieser Punkt, wo Du gedacht hast, ne, also Du generierst ja eigene Quizzes oder keine Ahnung, ich ich biete so einen KI Bildgenerator an oder 'n Chatbot für andere, den sie auf ihrer Webseite dann anbinden können.",{"text":35588,"start":10155,"end":10210},"Das macht es mir ja eigentlich unmöglich zu kontrollieren, was meine KI, die ich hier anbiete, den ganzen Tag so fabriziert.",{"text":35590,"start":10214,"end":10411},"Weil es kann ja keiner von mir erwarten, dass ich von meinem KI Chatbot jedes Protokoll mitlese, jedes Bild angucke, was da generiert wird, jedes Quiz angucke, was da da generiert wird und kann man sich dann wirklich so einfach frei machen davon, indem man sagt, ja, ist ja KI und müsste ja wissen, dass es im Zweifelsfall irgendwie Murks ist, ist ja eure Verantwortung, lieber User, da mal drauf zu schauen und zu gucken, ob alles rechtens ist.",{"text":35592,"start":10411,"end":10420},"Viel Spaß damit.",{"text":35594,"start":10422,"end":10547},"Kann ich das so verkürzen oder muss ich nicht auch am Ende, wenn mein, ich sag mal ganz übertrieben, wenn mein Chatbot irgendwie eskaliert und die die Kunden mit Profanitäten beleidigt oder so was, ja, bin ich nicht trotzdem dafür verantwortlich, was der da so tut, weil der ist ja mein Produkt.",197,{"sentences":35597,"speaker":205,"num_words":35606,"start":10550,"end":10840},[35598,35600,35602,35604],{"text":35599,"start":10550,"end":10628},"Ja, es gibt ja diese ganzen Fälle, ne, man hat das ja so manchmal online mitgekriegt, irgendwie son son son Chatbot fängt halt an, Kunden wüst zu beschimpfen oder so was, ja.",{"text":35601,"start":10628,"end":10759},"Wenn ich jetzt hier, weiß ich nicht, Salesforce bin und biete meinen Customer Support Bot an für Lotum, so, und jetzt ist der auf der Lotum Webseite und die Kunden fragen da, hey, ich komm hier bei 4 Bilder ein Wort nicht weiter, kannst Du mir bitte helfen, bla?",{"text":35603,"start":10759,"end":10811},"Und dann fängt der Chatbot an zu sagen, ja, Du bist aber blöd, ist doch nicht unser Problem, ja, so.",{"text":35605,"start":10811,"end":10840},"Und dann fühlt sich da son Kunde irgendwie angegriffen und beleidigt.",112,{"sentences":35608,"speaker":184,"num_words":246,"start":10843,"end":10875},[35609],{"text":35610,"start":10843,"end":10875},"Ja, ich weiß nicht, ob da jetzt 'n Schaden aus Anspruch, Klaus.",{"sentences":35612,"speaker":205,"num_words":35513,"start":10875,"end":11020},[35613,35615,35617],{"text":35614,"start":10875,"end":10938},"Ja, das ist jetzt son sehr son sehr kleiner Fall, ja, aber man kann es ja beliebig schlimm sich ausdenken eigentlich, ja.",{"text":35616,"start":10941,"end":10962},"Und das war so meine Frage son bisschen, ne.",{"text":35618,"start":10962,"end":11020},"Wenn wenn wenn ich setze da son Produkt in die Welt rein und ich muss ja irgendwie dafür verantwortlich sein, was es so tut.",{"sentences":35620,"speaker":184,"num_words":35630,"start":11024,"end":11232},[35621,35622,35624,35626,35628],{"text":586,"start":11024,"end":11025},{"text":35623,"start":11028,"end":11081},"Ja, ich glaube, der der Tipp ist das nicht zu versprechen, dass wenn man eine KI einsetzt, alles geprüft und richtig ist.",{"text":35625,"start":11081,"end":11115},"Das ist der einzige Weg, wie man damit verantwortlich umgehen kann, denk ich.",{"text":35627,"start":11118,"end":11184},"Also alles zu prüfen ist keine Möglichkeiten, es nicht zu prüfen und sich blind darauf zu verlassen und zu Qualitätsversprechend abzugeben, ist natürlich auch nicht clever.",{"text":35629,"start":11187,"end":11232},"Ja, also bleibt eigentlich nur noch, dass dass man eben die dieses Versprechen nicht abgibt, dass alles perfekt ist.",81,{"sentences":35632,"speaker":857,"num_words":35639,"start":11234,"end":11529},[35633,35635,35637],{"text":35634,"start":11234,"end":11452},"Und was auch aus meiner Sicht immer wichtig ist, ist eine menschliche Kontrolle, ne, dass Du einfach sagst, wenn eben so Fälle auftreten, dass beispielsweise der Chatbot aus dem Ruder läuft, ja und dass man dann eben son wie auch immer geartete Überwachung hat, dass man das relativ schnell merkt und dann eben auch eingreifen kann und sich dann eben auch mit dem entsprechenden Chatbot Anbieter in Verbindung setzt und schaut, dass das möglichst zeitnah dann auch geregelt wird oder eben der vorübergehend abgeschaltet wird.",{"text":35636,"start":11456,"end":11519},"Aber diese Verhältnis ist dann ja eher auf Vertragsebene zwischen dem Anbieter des Chatbots und die als Unternehmen, also nicht mit den Kunden.",{"text":35638,"start":11519,"end":11529},"Sind 2 verschiedene.",111,{"sentences":35641,"speaker":205,"num_words":35650,"start":11532,"end":11812},[35642,35643,35644,35646,35648],{"text":586,"start":11532,"end":11533},{"text":586,"start":11536,"end":11537},{"text":35645,"start":11537,"end":11698},"Es gab ja relativ früh in dieser KI Welle diesen Fall, über den, glaub ich, viel berichtet wurde, irgend 'n Chatbot hat auf der Webseite 1 Autohändlers dem Kunden 'n Auto für einen Dollar verkauft, weil der Kunde den Chatbot quasi so lange bearbeitet hat, bis der Chatbot irgendwann gesagt hat, ja, klingt nach 'nem fairen Deal und können wir so machen.",{"text":35647,"start":11701,"end":11744},"Und hat dann am Ende auch seinen Anspruch da durchgesetzt und dieses Auto für 'n Euro bekommen.",{"text":35649,"start":11747,"end":11812},"Das hat, glaube ich, viele erst mal so verschreckt, weil am Ende sie quasi in die Haftung genommen werden für das, was die KI da Kunden gegenüber verspricht.",109,{"sentences":35652,"speaker":205,"num_words":35656,"start":11816,"end":11917},[35653,35655],{"text":35654,"start":11816,"end":11914},"Ist das auch sone Sorge, die bei euch aufkommt und die Leute dann sagen, na ja, wenn ich jetzt hier KI in mein Produkt bringe, ja, ja, wie wie kann ich da, wie kann ich da sone Glaubhaftigkeit irgendwie auch erzeugen?",{"text":1532,"start":11914,"end":11917},42,{"sentences":35658,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":11919,"end":11926},[35659],{"text":35660,"start":11919,"end":11926},"Oder das Gegenteil.",{"sentences":35662,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":11926,"end":11939},[35663],{"text":35664,"start":11926,"end":11939},"Oder das Gegenteil, ja.",{"sentences":35666,"speaker":184,"num_words":35677,"start":11941,"end":12131},[35667,35669,35671,35673,35675],{"text":35668,"start":11941,"end":11952},"Ja, das Gegenteil, ganz klar.",{"text":35670,"start":11955,"end":12072},"Also wenn ich jetzt überlege, wir wollen Support cases einfacher von von der KI bearbeiten lassen, zum Teil, nicht komplett, ne, nur in bestimmten Fällen und so was, dann muss klar sein, egal was die KI da ausgibt, das ist von der KI geschrieben.",{"text":35672,"start":12072,"end":12103},"Also es muss die Möglichkeit geben, das irgendwie an Menschen zu eskalieren.",{"text":35674,"start":12103,"end":12115},"Es muss die Möglichkeit geben.",{"text":35676,"start":12115,"end":12131},"Das ist auch purer purer Eigeninteresse.",72,{"sentences":35679,"speaker":184,"num_words":35690,"start":12134,"end":12360},[35680,35682,35684,35686,35688],{"text":35681,"start":12134,"end":12157},"Also wir wollen niemandem dahinters Licht führen oder so.",{"text":35683,"start":12157,"end":12215},"Wir wollen ja nur, dass die Fälle schneller und einfacher bearbeitet werden, vielleicht schneller irgendwo 'n Look-up in in den oder so was, ne.",{"text":35685,"start":12217,"end":12231},"Also das ist definitiv die Empfehlung.",{"text":35687,"start":12231,"end":12306},"Und das hilft einem natürlich dann auch, falls es doch irgendwie 'n Auto für einen Euro verkauft, zu sagen, na ja, da sagen, na ja, da ist ganz klar drauf hingewiesen worden.",{"text":35689,"start":12306,"end":12360},"Da verbindet jederzeit mit 'nem Mensch, das eine KI, die Antwort, die Aussagen können, Ungenauigkeiten oder Falschaussagen beinhalten.",89,{"sentences":35692,"speaker":184,"num_words":35003,"start":12364,"end":12392},[35693],{"text":35694,"start":12364,"end":12392},"Aber in der Regel helfen sie und deswegen bieten wir das ja an.",{"sentences":35696,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":12395,"end":12411},[35697],{"text":35698,"start":12395,"end":12411},"Also maximale Transparenzoffensive an der Stelle?",{"sentences":35700,"speaker":857,"num_words":184,"start":12413,"end":12414},[35701],{"text":12416,"start":12413,"end":12414},{"sentences":35703,"speaker":184,"num_words":184,"start":12418,"end":12419},[35704],{"text":12421,"start":12418,"end":12419},{"sentences":35706,"speaker":205,"num_words":35567,"start":12423,"end":12746},[35707,35709,35711,35713,35715],{"text":35708,"start":12423,"end":12467},"Jetzt haben wir ganz lange darüber gesprochen, wie das mir und meinen Kunden gegenüber quasi so ergehen kann.",{"text":35710,"start":12469,"end":12526},"Wie ist das denn in der internen Nutzung, wir hatten da ganz am Anfang son bisschen drüber gesprochen, diese diese Quizfragen, ja.",{"text":35712,"start":12526,"end":12595},"Wir haben ja jetzt auch hier mit 4 Bilder ein Wort, ein ein ein Produkt, was super bildlastig, Bildergenerierung geht ja auch mittlerweile sehr, sehr gut.",{"text":35714,"start":12597,"end":12704},"Was ich mich da immer frag ist, wem gehören denn diese ganzen oder wer hätte denn das Urheberrecht an diesen KI erzeugten Bildern, weil das ja, gerade wenn sie Teile von unseren Spielen sind, ja schon auch irgendwie relevant sein kann, oder?",{"text":35716,"start":12704,"end":12746},"Ich mein, ich ich kann das auch gestehen, ja, wir haben auch von den Programmierballogos",{"sentences":35718,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":12750,"end":12755},[35719],{"text":35720,"start":12750,"end":12755},"auch in",{"sentences":35722,"speaker":205,"num_words":35731,"start":12755,"end":12883},[35723,35725,35727,35729],{"text":35724,"start":12755,"end":12778},"den Assets sind auch son paar KI generiert, ja.",{"text":35726,"start":12781,"end":12793},"Pst, das hat keiner gehört.",{"text":35728,"start":12793,"end":12852},"Und ich frag mich dann immer so, ja, also wir machen das, alle anderen machen das irgendwie auch, aber sind das wirklich meine Bilder am Ende?",{"text":35730,"start":12856,"end":12883},"Oder wessen Bilder sind das, die jetzt auf dieser programmierbar Webseite sind?",52,{"sentences":35733,"speaker":857,"num_words":35744,"start":12885,"end":13136},[35734,35736,35738,35740,35742],{"text":35735,"start":12885,"end":12901},"Nicht deine jedenfalls oder also nicht.",{"text":35737,"start":12901,"end":12947},"Das Problem ist, das Urheberrecht kommt zur Anwendung und das Urheberrecht, das gibt's ja schon seit geraumer Zeit.",{"text":35739,"start":12950,"end":12991},"Und da steht eben drin, dass die geschützten Werke müssen persönlich geistige Schöpfungen sein, ja?",{"text":35741,"start":12994,"end":13024},"Und persönliche geistige Schöpfungen sind nur solche, die von Menschen generiert werden, ja?",{"text":35743,"start":13024,"end":13136},"Also da gab's in, was nicht, 20 15, 16 gab's son Fall, wo 'n Affe, vielleicht kennt ihr das, 'n Affe, naruto, hat son 'nem Kameramann die Kamera aus der Hand genommen und son Selfie gemacht.",88,{"sentences":35746,"speaker":857,"num_words":35168,"start":13136,"end":13288},[35747,35749,35751],{"text":35748,"start":13136,"end":13217},"Und da wurde dann auch 'n Verfahren in den USA zwar, aber geführt, ob eben es Urheberrechtsschutz gibt an diesem L Selfie, was dieses die diese Affe generiert hat.",{"text":35750,"start":13217,"end":13234},"Und da haben die Gerichte gesagt, nein.",{"text":35752,"start":13234,"end":13288},"Und das ist per heute Standard, also weder tierisches noch maschinengenerierter Output, wie wir's nennen, ist urheberrechtsschutzfähig.",{"sentences":35754,"speaker":205,"num_words":35265,"start":13292,"end":13418},[35755,35757,35758,35760],{"text":35756,"start":13292,"end":13313},"Okay, da da hätt ich eine Folgefrage dazu.",{"text":13318,"start":13315,"end":13316},{"text":35759,"start":13320,"end":13382},"Wenn ich mich jetzt vor Adobe Illustrator setze oder so was und ein Bild damit male, ich bin Urheber dieses Bildes, oder?",{"text":35761,"start":13384,"end":13418},"Auch wenn ich's am Computer gemalt hab, aber ich hab's ja trotzdem gemacht.",{"sentences":35763,"speaker":857,"num_words":184,"start":13420,"end":13421},[35764],{"text":592,"start":13420,"end":13421},{"sentences":35766,"speaker":205,"num_words":35677,"start":13425,"end":13612},[35767,35769,35771,35773],{"text":35768,"start":13425,"end":13480},"Wenn ich jetzt bei ChatGPT, Google, wo auch immer, meinen Prompt eingebe, bin ich ja auch Schöpfer dieses Prompts.",{"text":35770,"start":13484,"end":13554},"Also ich sag ja der Maschine, was sie tun soll, genauso wie ich in Illustrator sage, mach hier einen roten Punkt, mach da eine blaue Linie, mach dieses und jenes.",{"text":35772,"start":13557,"end":13599},"So ist ja das prompt auch nur eine andere Art von Anweisungen, die quasi die Maschine umzusetzen hat.",{"text":35774,"start":13601,"end":13612},"Wo ist da der Unterschied?",{"sentences":35776,"speaker":857,"num_words":35690,"start":13615,"end":13850},[35777,35779,35781,35783,35785],{"text":35778,"start":13615,"end":13666},"Der Unterschied ist, dass Du durch den prompt nur eine zufällige Herausgabe, Also Du bekommst nur 'n zufälliges Ergebnis.",{"text":35780,"start":13666,"end":13743},"Das hast Du nicht wirklich in der Hand, ja, weil wenn Du den gleichen Prompt eingibst, einmal heute und einmal morgen, dann kommt jedes Mal 'n unterschiedliches Ergebnis raus.",{"text":35782,"start":13743,"end":13801},"Und das ist der Unterschied, dass Du sagst, Du kannst es eben nicht beeinflussen, sondern die der Output stammt einfach von der Maschine.",{"text":35784,"start":13804,"end":13838},"Je nachdem, wie die eben trainiert wurde, kannst Du eben ganz unterschiedlichen Output herausbekommen.",{"text":35786,"start":13842,"end":13850},"Also das ist Also",{"sentences":35788,"speaker":184,"num_words":35081,"start":13850,"end":14003},[35789,35791,35793],{"text":35790,"start":13850,"end":13906},"ich bin voll bei dir, dass das herrschende Meinung ist und dass das so Aber ich bin auch Verfechter 1 anderen Meinung.",{"text":35792,"start":13909,"end":13951},"Ich glaub nämlich auch, also die die schöpferische Prägung muss ja von 'nem Individuum kommen, ne.",{"text":35794,"start":13951,"end":14003},"Das heißt, die die Entscheidungen, die persönlichen Entscheidungen, wie das Werk am Ende sein soll, soll von einem Menschen kommen.",{"sentences":35796,"speaker":205,"num_words":857,"start":14006,"end":14010},[35797],{"text":35798,"start":14006,"end":14010},"Und da",{"sentences":35800,"speaker":184,"num_words":35810,"start":14010,"end":14220},[35801,35803,35804,35806,35808],{"text":35802,"start":14010,"end":14069},"kann ich verstehen, wenn auch wenn's da mit dem Foto 'n Selfie von sich macht, dass das eben nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt ist.",{"text":14073,"start":14069,"end":14072},{"text":35805,"start":14072,"end":14095},"Aber ich seh KI in vielen Fällen wie ein Werkzeug.",{"text":35807,"start":14095,"end":14189},"Also wenn ich jetzt 'n Fenster aufmachen würde und meine Staffel leider irgendwie in den Garten werfe und dann regnet's zufällig drauf und dann werbe ich das an die Wand und sag, voila, Kunst.",{"text":35809,"start":14192,"end":14220},"Dann dann werden doch, dann würden ja alle sagen, wow, genial, Kunst.",79,{"sentences":35812,"speaker":184,"num_words":35823,"start":14220,"end":14501},[35813,35815,35817,35819,35821],{"text":35814,"start":14220,"end":14277},"Aber es war eigentlich zufällig, ob jetzt 'n Vogel grad vorbeigefahren ist oder jetzt geregnet hat oder wie auch immer das dann aussieht.",{"text":35816,"start":14280,"end":14310},"Und ich hab die Entscheidung nur getroffen, da eine Staffel 3 rauszuwerfen.",{"text":35818,"start":14314,"end":14344},"Und trotzdem wär das, glaub ich, urheber richtig geschützt, würden zumindest viele sagen.",{"text":35820,"start":14347,"end":14398},"Bei 'ner KI, glaub ich, kommt's drauf an, wenn ich nur reinschreibe, schönes Haus, dann wär's natürlich zu wenig.",{"text":35822,"start":14398,"end":14501},"Aber wenn ich den Zusammenhang zwischen dem, was ich getan hab, also dem prompt oder ne, einzelne, also mittlerweile ist ja nicht nur 'n prompt, man kann ja auch mehr Verarbeitungsschritte da haben und dem, was man dann am Ende sieht,",108,{"sentences":35825,"speaker":205,"num_words":184,"start":14504,"end":14505},[35826],{"text":586,"start":14504,"end":14505},{"sentences":35828,"speaker":184,"num_words":35835,"start":14508,"end":14762},[35829,35831,35833],{"text":35830,"start":14508,"end":14568},"Wenn man diesen Zusammenhang herstellen kann, dann verstehe ich noch nicht, dass man sagt, dass man pauschal sagt, KI ist überhaupt nicht schutzwähig.",{"text":35832,"start":14571,"end":14644},"Weil ich, also man man ist ja schon soweit ganz klar, dass man sagt, ja, der Text, der prompt, ne, den kann man schützen, das ist ja, glaube ich, logisch.",{"text":35834,"start":14644,"end":14762},"Man hat sich diesen Text ja erdacht, aber den den Schritt von dem prompt, also der Anleitung, den Entscheidungen, die man macht für das Kunstwerk zum Kunstwerk und diesen Zusammenhang, wenn der stark genug ist, dann wär ich schon der Meinung, dass man das vielleicht würdigen kann, oder?",101,{"sentences":35837,"speaker":857,"num_words":35848,"start":14764,"end":15017},[35838,35840,35842,35844,35846],{"text":35839,"start":14764,"end":14771},"Könnte man meinen.",{"text":35841,"start":14775,"end":14830},"Es gibt allerdings in den USA schon entgegengesetzte, nicht also es gibt eine Entscheidung vom US Copyright Office.",{"text":35843,"start":14833,"end":14915},"Und zwar gab's einen Künstler, der hat ein KI generiertes Bild erstellt und hat das dann noch mal mit 600 Proms oder über 600 Proms noch mal nachbearbeitet und hat das dann eingereicht.",{"text":35845,"start":14919,"end":14955},"Und selbst da war das Copyright Office der Meinung, also nein, auch das reicht nicht aus.",{"text":35847,"start":14958,"end":15017},"Und das Bild sieht, so wie's ursprünglich war, zu dem, wie's dann mit diesen 600 Prom verändert wurde, schon tatsächlich deutlich anders aus.",93,{"sentences":35850,"speaker":857,"num_words":35081,"start":15017,"end":15174},[35851,35853,35855],{"text":35852,"start":15017,"end":15031},"Aber auch das hat nicht gereicht.",{"text":35854,"start":15031,"end":15082},"Und das schon sone hohe Hürde, dass man aktuell sagen kann, wohl eher schwierig, das schützen zu lassen.",{"text":35856,"start":15085,"end":15174},"Letzten Endes, es gibt noch nicht viele Gerichtsentscheidungen, ne, also kann sich auch irgendwann anders rauskristallisieren, aber per heute scheint sich das so überall so durchzusetzen, dass man sagt, nee, einen Schutz gibt's dann",{"sentences":35858,"speaker":205,"num_words":35302,"start":15177,"end":15218},[35859],{"text":35860,"start":15177,"end":15218},"Und das heißt aber, dass diese ganzen Bilder, die damit jetzt generiert worden sind, die gehören eigentlich niemandem.",{"sentences":35862,"speaker":857,"num_words":184,"start":15221,"end":15222},[35863],{"text":15224,"start":15221,"end":15222},{"sentences":35865,"speaker":205,"num_words":35529,"start":15226,"end":15397},[35866,35868],{"text":35867,"start":15226,"end":15375},"Und das heißt, wenn ich jetzt auf, weiß ich nicht, ich finde auf Amazon ein Buch, von dem ich erfahre, dass der Autor das eigentlich nur mit k I geschrieben hat, weil er gedacht hat, der kann so als unabhängiger Autor reich werden, Kann ich mir dieses Buch dann beliebig kopieren, ohne eine Urheberrechtsverletzung zu begehen?",{"text":35869,"start":15378,"end":15397},"Weil ja kein schützenswerter Inhalt drin ist.",{"sentences":35871,"speaker":857,"num_words":35876,"start":15400,"end":15560},[35872,35874],{"text":35873,"start":15400,"end":15544},"Die Frage ist natürlich, die sich stellt, kannst Du, also wenn Du gesichertes Wissen hast, dass dieses Buch rein KI generiert ist, ja, und keinerlei sonstiger großer menschlicher Input dazu ist, dann würd ich sagen, ja, kannst Du dir kannst Du dir sozusagen zu eigenen Aber wie gesagt, am Ende wird es wird's dazu Gerichtsentscheidungen geben müssen, ja.",{"text":35875,"start":15544,"end":15560},"Aber per heute würd ich sagen, ja.",65,{"sentences":35878,"speaker":205,"num_words":35572,"start":15560,"end":15576},[35879],{"text":35880,"start":15560,"end":15576},"Richard, Du wolltest grade noch was fragen.",{"sentences":35882,"speaker":184,"num_words":35192,"start":15579,"end":15626},[35883,35885,35887],{"text":35884,"start":15579,"end":15588},"Ja, zum Thema Zufall.",{"text":35886,"start":15591,"end":15611},"Eine KI funktioniert ja erst mal komplett deterministisch.",{"text":35888,"start":15615,"end":15626},"Also wenn man auf 0",{"sentences":35890,"speaker":205,"num_words":246,"start":15628,"end":15657},[35891],{"text":35892,"start":15628,"end":15657},"Ohne Temperatur, das war das wär jetzt auch meine andere Frage, ne.",{"sentences":35894,"speaker":184,"num_words":35905,"start":15657,"end":16030},[35895,35897,35899,35901,35903],{"text":35896,"start":15657,"end":15729},"Ohne Temperatur, ne, dann ist es so, dass alles, was man als Input gibt, ja, also also immer wenn man denselben Input gibt, gibt's denselben Output, 100 Prozent.",{"text":35898,"start":15729,"end":15799},"Wenn man, das ist bei manchen, also bei manchen Umgebungen kann man das einstellen und auf 0 setzen, das keinerlei Zufall und dann ist es immer gleich.",{"text":35900,"start":15802,"end":15894},"Gut, das beantwortet natürlich nicht die schöpferische Leistung, die dahintersteckt im eigenen Prompt, aber zumindest kann man dann sagen, es gibt keinerlei Zufall, dass der Computer da großartig mitwirkt, sondern ich nutze es als reines Werkzeug.",{"text":35902,"start":15896,"end":15973},"Also genauso wie die Pixel, die ich mit 'ner digitalen Spraydose mache, ist ja auch Zufall, aber es ist 'n Mittel, was ich bewusst einsetzen kann, mein Bild zu erzeugen.",{"text":35904,"start":15976,"end":16030},"Und damit kann ich rumspielen, damit kann ich was schau, ne, machen, damit ich genau das Bild rausbekomme, was ich will.",142,{"sentences":35907,"speaker":184,"num_words":35910,"start":16030,"end":16120},[35908],{"text":35909,"start":16030,"end":16120},"So so wär zumindest meine Herangehensweise, aber ich hoffe auch, dass vielleicht der ein oder andere Richter sich davon überzeugen lässt in Zukunft, weil es wär natürlich schade, wenn so was gar nicht schützenswert ist.",35,{"sentences":35912,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":16122,"end":16137},[35913,35915],{"text":35914,"start":16122,"end":16130},"Werden wir sehen.",{"text":35916,"start":16130,"end":16137},"Na, gab's",{"sentences":35918,"speaker":205,"num_words":35921,"start":16137,"end":16281},[35919],{"text":35920,"start":16137,"end":16281},"so was in der Geschichte schon mal, dass es ein ein ein Medium, ein Werkzeug gab, wo man erst davon ausgegangen ist, es kann keinen Urheberrechtsschutz genießen und im Nachgang dann durch Weiterentwicklung oder durch, wie Richard grade beschrieben hat, sone bessere Nachvollziehbarkeit von dem, was da passiert ist, wo sich dann so was doch eingestellt hat?",57,{"sentences":35923,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":16285,"end":16299},[35924],{"text":35925,"start":16285,"end":16299},"Müssten wir mal ChatGPT fragen.",{"sentences":35927,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":16302,"end":16323},[35928,35930],{"text":35929,"start":16302,"end":16314},"Jetzt sag keine Idee.",{"text":35931,"start":16317,"end":16323},"Ich, nee,",{"sentences":35933,"speaker":857,"num_words":35383,"start":16323,"end":16332},[35934],{"text":35935,"start":16323,"end":16332},"das weiß ich nicht.",{"sentences":35937,"speaker":205,"num_words":35197,"start":16332,"end":16392},[35938],{"text":35939,"start":16332,"end":16392},"Ich hab grad überlegt, weißt Du, so die ersten elektronischen Musikinstrumente oder irgendwie so was, ne, wo ja auch, ne, weil weil also",{"sentences":35941,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":16395,"end":16408},[35942],{"text":35943,"start":16395,"end":16408},"Es wär nichts bekannt dazu.",{"sentences":35945,"speaker":184,"num_words":35214,"start":16411,"end":16605},[35946,35948,35950,35952],{"text":35947,"start":16411,"end":16457},"Also Urheberrecht funktioniert ja so, dass man sagt, 'n Mensch muss irgendwie eine schöpferische Tätigkeit leisten und so weiter.",{"text":35949,"start":16460,"end":16489},"Aber für Fotoaufnahmen gibt's ja noch mal getrennt davon eine Norm.",{"text":35951,"start":16489,"end":16592},"Ist das nicht was Vergleichbares, also es geht eine andere Richtung, aber dass man für ein bestimmtes für ein bestimmtes Werkzeug eine Sonderregel schafft und sagt, Fotos sind immer schützenswert, egal ob Du die Kameraeinstellung beherrscht oder nicht.",{"text":35953,"start":16595,"end":16605},"Oder ist das nicht so?",{"sentences":35955,"speaker":857,"num_words":35966,"start":16607,"end":16710},[35956,35958,35960,35962,35964],{"text":35957,"start":16607,"end":16612},"Das stimmt.",{"text":35959,"start":16615,"end":16627},"Also Lichtbildwerke werden anders geschützt.",{"text":35961,"start":16631,"end":16663},"Also Lichtbilder, Lichtbildwerke, ist jetzt sehr juristisch ehrlich gesagt, ja.",{"text":35963,"start":16663,"end":16694},"Lichtbilder haben einen kürzeren Schutz, ja, sind aber per se immer geschützt.",{"text":35965,"start":16694,"end":16710},"Ich glaub, es gibt 'n paar Ausnahmen.",36,{"sentences":35968,"speaker":857,"num_words":35690,"start":16710,"end":16947},[35969,35971,35973,35975,35977],{"text":35970,"start":16710,"end":16765},"Aber natürlich, es gibt auch so gewollte Regelungen, die der Urheber, der Gesetzgeber ins Urhebergesetz aufgenommen hat, ja.",{"text":35972,"start":16765,"end":16787},"Also zum Beispiel Presseverleger und so was, ja.",{"text":35974,"start":16787,"end":16869},"Also da gibt's durchaus einige Regelungen, die man so als bewusst, wo man gemerkt hat, hier fehlt son bisschen der Schutz nach dem, wie man's halt vor 100 Jahren irgendwann mal zusammengeschrieben hat.",{"text":35976,"start":16873,"end":16942},"Computerprogramme zum Beispiel, ne, ist auch sone Sache, wo man eben im Nachhinein gemerkt hat, da braucht man noch 'n paar Sonderregelungen und dann hat man das einfach aufgenommen.",{"text":16949,"start":16946,"end":16947},{"sentences":35979,"speaker":857,"num_words":35986,"start":16947,"end":17090},[35980,35982,35984],{"text":35981,"start":16947,"end":16960},"Also kann sich durchaus entwickeln.",{"text":35983,"start":16963,"end":17030},"Per heute versucht man natürlich immer noch mit dem gegebenem Gesetzeswerk, das das neue Medium KI drunter zu schaufeln und muss eben gucken, wo's rauskommt.",{"text":35985,"start":17030,"end":17090},"Aber klar, wenn man da merkt, dass es da eine Regelungslücke gibt, dann ist durchaus denkbar, dass sich der Gesetzgeber da noch mal bewegt.",54,{"sentences":35988,"speaker":205,"num_words":35848,"start":17093,"end":17323},[35989,35991,35993,35995,35997],{"text":35990,"start":17093,"end":17127},"Jetzt haben wir darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI meinen Kunden gegenüber nutze.",{"text":35992,"start":17127,"end":17156},"Wir haben darüber gesprochen, was ich beachten muss, wenn ich KI sehr benutze.",{"text":35994,"start":17159,"end":17236},"Der letzte große Fall, wahrscheinlich der seltenste, aber der Interessanteste ist ja, was muss ich beachten, wenn ich selber eigene KI Modelle bauen, trainieren, feintunen möchte, so.",{"text":35996,"start":17239,"end":17256},"Weil das ja auch nicht so ganz ohne ist.",{"text":35998,"start":17256,"end":17323},"So am Ende stehen und fallen diese Modelle mit den Daten, mit denen sie quasi trainiert und gefüttert werden und an die muss ja auch erst mal rankommen.",{"sentences":36000,"speaker":205,"num_words":36005,"start":17327,"end":17391},[36001,36003],{"text":36002,"start":17327,"end":17368},"So, da wär jetzt meine erste Frage, ganz laienhaft so, was darf ich denn dafür überhaupt nehmen?",{"text":36004,"start":17371,"end":17391},"Alles, was ich im Internet finde, Fragezeichen?",24,{"sentences":36007,"speaker":857,"num_words":36018,"start":17395,"end":17617},[36008,36010,36012,36014,36016],{"text":36009,"start":17395,"end":17460},"Also am einfachsten ist, Du nimmst nur deine eigenen Datensätze, ja, die Du bei dir eigenes Wissen, was Du bei dir so in der Firma vorhanden hast.",{"text":36011,"start":17462,"end":17506},"Das ist am einfachsten, weil da hast Du die Rechte dran und da kann im Regelfall nichts passieren.",{"text":36013,"start":17508,"end":17520},"Das ist der leichteste Fall.",{"text":36015,"start":17520,"end":17611},"Dann schwieriger wird's schon, wenn Du Daten, also Du kannst dir natürlich Datensätze einlizenzieren von Dritten, ja, sei es, wenn Du sagst, Du willst jetzt Videos erstellen, Shutterstock oder Ähnlichen, ne.",{"text":36017,"start":17611,"end":17617},"Das geht.",83,{"sentences":36020,"speaker":857,"num_words":35136,"start":17617,"end":17741},[36021,36023,36025,36027,36029],{"text":36022,"start":17617,"end":17647},"Da muss man eben dann genau drauf achten, wie sind die Lizenzbedingungen?",{"text":36024,"start":17651,"end":17662},"Wofür darf ich sie benutzen?",{"text":36026,"start":17662,"end":17687},"Darf ich sie eben, darf ich sie kommerziell benutzen?",{"text":36028,"start":17690,"end":17701},"Darf ich sie zum Training benutzen?",{"text":36030,"start":17701,"end":17741},"Also da gibt's eine ganze Reihe unterschiedliche, auch unterschiedlich teurer Modelle dann oder Lizenzmodelle natürlich.",{"sentences":36032,"speaker":857,"num_words":34993,"start":17741,"end":17771},[36033,36034],{"text":16949,"start":17741,"end":17745},{"text":36035,"start":17745,"end":17771},"Und komplizierter wird's im Bereich personenbezogene Daten, aber",{"sentences":36037,"speaker":205,"num_words":36048,"start":17773,"end":18094},[36038,36040,36042,36044,36046],{"text":36039,"start":17773,"end":17827},"Okay, bevor wir da dazu kommen, vielleicht eine Frage zu dem, ich muss die Sachen lizenzieren, die ich dafür nutzen will.",{"text":36041,"start":17829,"end":17909},"Weil ich verstehe, dass ich, wenn ich hier Bilder irgendwie nutzen will, ne, kauf ich mir eine Lizenz, dann kann ich die in meinen Spielen, in meinen Printartikeln, keine Ahnung, überall benutzen.",{"text":36043,"start":17913,"end":17939},"Weil ich ja quasi dieses Bild auch 1 zu 1 wiedergebe, so.",{"text":36045,"start":17939,"end":18054},"Wenn ich jetzt aber ja nur mein LLM damit trainiere, an mit 'nem Bild oder mit 'nem Text, wie auch immer, dann findet sich ja dieses Ding später nicht mehr in dem LLM und es ist auch nur sehr schwer bis unmöglich, daraus wieder abzuleiten, ne.",{"text":36047,"start":18057,"end":18094},"Wieso muss ich das denn dann lizenzieren, wenn ich es ja gar nicht vervielfältige sozusagen?",126,{"sentences":36050,"speaker":205,"num_words":35656,"start":18098,"end":18205},[36051,36053,36055,36057],{"text":36052,"start":18098,"end":18158},"Es ist ja nicht so, dass ich jetzt irgendwie Kopien von dem Bild verkaufen möchte, sondern ich nutz es ja nur einmal für mich intern.",{"text":36054,"start":18161,"end":18171},"Niemand da draußen sieht es.",{"text":36056,"start":18175,"end":18190},"Wieso muss ich da trotzdem für zahlen?",{"text":36058,"start":18190,"end":18205},"So mal ganz ketzerisch gefragt.",{"sentences":36060,"speaker":857,"num_words":35297,"start":18208,"end":18435},[36061,36063,36065,36067],{"text":36062,"start":18208,"end":18255},"Also es gibt natürlich noch die, es gibt noch sone Schrankenregelung, ja, im im Urheberrecht, jetzt wird's 'n bisschen technisch.",{"text":36064,"start":18260,"end":18347},"Danach darf man, das das ist das sogenannte Text and Data Mining, ja, dazu dürfen Daten zum Training von KI benutzt werden, es sei denn, der Rechteinhaber hat 'n Vorbehalt erklärt.",{"text":36066,"start":18350,"end":18392},"Und mittlerweile ist es tatsächlich so, dass natürlich sämtliche großen Datensatzinhaber diesen Vorbehalt erklärt haben, ja.",{"text":36068,"start":18392,"end":18435},"Also sei es alle großen Zeitungen, Zeitschriften, ja, also sämtliche Bilddatenbanken, die erklären eben diesen",{"sentences":36070,"speaker":205,"num_words":36075,"start":18437,"end":18500},[36071,36073],{"text":36072,"start":18437,"end":18464},"der eigentlich die Recht innehber, hat es mir verboten sozusagen.",{"text":36074,"start":18468,"end":18500},"Und mich aus diesem Verbot freizukaufen, muss ich dann quasi Lizenz erwerben.",22,{"sentences":36077,"speaker":184,"num_words":792,"start":18503,"end":18660},[36078,36080,36082],{"text":36079,"start":18503,"end":18549},"Ich hab so verstanden, dass im Urhebergesetz eine Ausnahme gibt, also das Text im Data Mining Ausnahme.",{"text":36081,"start":18552,"end":18613},"Und in dem Rahmen, was der ist, kann ich nicht genau sagen, aber in dem Rahmen darf man das, außer Das man hat widersprochen.",{"text":36083,"start":18617,"end":18660},"Nee, außer man hat selber widersprochen, dass man's für die, also dass jemand das mit den eigenen Daten darf.",{"sentences":36085,"speaker":205,"num_words":36091,"start":18663,"end":18740},[36086,36087,36089],{"text":12421,"start":18663,"end":18664},{"text":36088,"start":18668,"end":18700},"Dann hatt ich dich grad unterbrochen, als wir zu den Benutzerdaten gekommen waren.",{"text":36090,"start":18704,"end":18740},"Wenn ich mein Modell auf Daten trainieren will, die von anderen Benutzern, anderen Dritten",28,{"sentences":36093,"speaker":857,"num_words":35302,"start":18743,"end":18800},[36094,36096],{"text":36095,"start":18743,"end":18790},"Da hatt ich eigentlich den Blick schon Richtung Richard gewendet, weil da hat Richard, Tommy more.",{"text":36097,"start":18794,"end":18800},"Richards Lieblingsbericht.",{"sentences":36099,"speaker":184,"num_words":35656,"start":18804,"end":18910},[36100,36102,36104,36106,36108],{"text":36101,"start":18804,"end":18833},"Ich würd noch gern ergänzen, wie kann man überhaupt sich davor schützen?",{"text":36103,"start":18833,"end":18856},"Also wie kann man selber son Opt out machen?",{"text":36105,"start":18856,"end":18891},"Ich möchte nicht, dass die Webseite der programmierbar von der KI gescrept wird, ne.",{"text":36107,"start":18891,"end":18905},"Kann ja auch 'n häufiger sein.",{"text":592,"start":18909,"end":18910},{"sentences":36110,"speaker":184,"num_words":792,"start":18913,"end":19074},[36111,36113,36115,36117,36119],{"text":36112,"start":18913,"end":18943},"Und da gibt's die Möglichkeiten, im robot txt das zu schreiben.",{"text":36114,"start":18943,"end":18976},"Also da gibt findet man auch viele Vorlagen irgendwie im Internet und so was.",{"text":36116,"start":18979,"end":19009},"Oder auch andere, ex robot Tags Tags, no AI Tags.",{"text":36118,"start":19009,"end":19035},"Da bist Du wahrscheinlich versierter als ich, wie man das genau macht.",{"text":36120,"start":19038,"end":19074},"Oder ganz hart einfach nur die bekannten AI Skraper und Crawler irgendwie blocken.",{"sentences":36122,"speaker":205,"num_words":35823,"start":19077,"end":19362},[36123,36125,36127,36129,36131],{"text":36124,"start":19077,"end":19144},"Aber das ist eine interessante Frage, weil Du auch grade gesagt hast, Peggy, das sind manche Zeitungen und Verlage das ja quasi pauschal schon schon ablehnen.",{"text":36126,"start":19147,"end":19196},"Wenn Du mir das jetzt nicht gesagt hattest, hätt ich das natürlich a nicht gewusst, aber das ist ja meine eigene Schuld.",{"text":36128,"start":19199,"end":19232},"Aber steht ja auch jetzt nicht ganz groß oben auf der Zeitung drauf, ne.",{"text":36130,"start":19232,"end":19299},"Also wenn ich hier die Frankfurter Rundschau aufschlage, steht ja nicht, Banner oben auf Seite 1, bitte nicht in dein AI Model schmeißen.",{"text":36132,"start":19302,"end":19362},"Wo woran kann ich denn überhaupt erkennen oder wie sehr muss ich da nachforschen, nachfragen et cetera, ob das erlaubt ist oder nicht?",{"sentences":36134,"speaker":205,"num_words":36137,"start":19362,"end":19414},[36135],{"text":36136,"start":19362,"end":19414},"Oder wie sehr ist da der der Inhaltsersteller in der Pflicht, das möglichst markant zu machen, dass er das nicht möchte?",21,{"sentences":36139,"speaker":857,"num_words":35081,"start":19417,"end":19575},[36140,36142],{"text":36141,"start":19417,"end":19487},"Also sämtliche großen Zeitschriften beispielsweise, die haben diese Text zum Data Mining, diesen Ausschluss alle auf ihrer Webseite erklärt und das müsstest Du auch einhalten.",{"text":36143,"start":19490,"end":19575},"Da bist Du schon auch selber in der Pflicht, wenn Du die trotzdem benutzt, ist es dann eben unter Umständen Urheberrechtsverletzung, weil Du deren ausdrückliche ausdrücklichen, wie sagt man, Vorbehalt eben nicht respektierst.",{"sentences":36145,"speaker":205,"num_words":35036,"start":19579,"end":19590},[36146],{"text":36147,"start":19579,"end":19590},"Das Teil ihrer AGBs einfach",{"sentences":36149,"speaker":857,"num_words":35265,"start":19592,"end":19709},[36150,36151,36153,36154],{"text":16949,"start":19592,"end":19593},{"text":36152,"start":19596,"end":19600},"Ja, okay.",{"text":592,"start":19600,"end":19603},{"text":36155,"start":19603,"end":19709},"Also die meisten haben's eben, wie Richard sagte, in dieser Robo txt Datei drin, aber oft wird's eben auch noch wirklich in den AGBs erklärt oder als extra lesbarer Vorbehalt, sodass Du auch als Mensch es eben gut finden kannst.",{"sentences":36157,"speaker":184,"num_words":35554,"start":19712,"end":19794},[36158,36160,36162],{"text":36159,"start":19712,"end":19746},"Also Maschinen- und menschenlesbar, ich glaub, da kann man nicht zu viel machen.",{"text":36161,"start":19748,"end":19778},"Problem ist dann immer noch, woher willst Du wissen, ob das funktioniert hat?",{"text":36163,"start":19778,"end":19794},"Also Du kannst es ja schlicht nachweisen.",{"sentences":36165,"speaker":205,"num_words":36174,"start":19797,"end":19999},[36166,36168,36170,36172],{"text":36167,"start":19797,"end":19807},"Das ist 'n guter Punkt.",{"text":36169,"start":19807,"end":19840},"Wer ist denn da am Ende in der Pflicht und in der Verantwortung eigentlich?",{"text":36171,"start":19840,"end":19993},"Also wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI, ohne Ihnen was zu unterstellen zu wollen, aber weil's einfach so der Größe da draußen ist, wenn ich jetzt zu Open AI gehe und sag, ihr habt aber euer GPT an meinen programmierbaren Folgen hier trainiert und ich finde das böse und gemein und will mein Geld zurück, Wie wie läuft das?",{"text":36173,"start":19995,"end":19999},"Also es",80,{"sentences":36176,"speaker":857,"num_words":36187,"start":19999,"end":20187},[36177,36179,36181,36183,36185],{"text":36178,"start":19999,"end":20061},"gibt ja mittlerweile schon eine ganze Reihe an Prozessen, ja, sowohl in den USA, aber auch tatsächlich in Deutschland an den diversen Gerichten.",{"text":36180,"start":20064,"end":20115},"Und da wird eben dann, also in der Regel sind's die Gerichte schon so, dass das Vervielfältigungen sind, also urheberrechtliche Handlungen.",{"text":36182,"start":20118,"end":20146},"Und dann ist eben die Frage, ne, durfte man's, durfte man's nicht?",{"text":36184,"start":20148,"end":20175},"Gibt's Vorbehalte, die erklärt wurden, die wirksam erklärt wurden?",{"text":36186,"start":20179,"end":20187},"Wie sieht das aus?",69,{"sentences":36189,"speaker":857,"num_words":35690,"start":20187,"end":20424},[36190,36192,36194,36196,36198],{"text":36191,"start":20187,"end":20227},"Zum Beispiel ein Gerichtsfall am Landgericht Hamburg, da geht's eben auch diese dieses Graping.",{"text":36193,"start":20230,"end":20282},"Da ging's aber darum, dass diese Daten gescraped worden von 'nem Verein, der das zu wissenschaftlichen Zwecken gemacht hat.",{"text":36195,"start":20282,"end":20302},"Und dafür gibt's wieder eine besondere Ausnahme, ja.",{"text":36197,"start":20302,"end":20373},"Und da haben sich die Richter aber auch tatsächlich son bisschen bisschen schon geäußert zu dieser zu dieser Frage des Vorbehalts, ja, und ihre Lösung da son bisschen proklamiert.",{"text":36199,"start":20377,"end":20424},"Und dann gibt's beispielsweise auch 'n anderen Fall, der ist jetzt beim EuGH gelandet, also am höchsten europäischen Gericht.",{"sentences":36201,"speaker":857,"num_words":36208,"start":20427,"end":20697},[36202,36204,36206],{"text":36203,"start":20427,"end":20543},"Der kommt aus Ungarn und da war's tatsächlich so, dass ein Zeitschriftenverleger nachweisen konnte, dass bei Gemini 'n gewisser Text eben 1 zu 1 wiedergegeben war, sodass die Verletzung relativ klar war, da ist jetzt eben die Frage, wie ist das juristisch zu bewerten?",{"text":36205,"start":20543,"end":20657},"Und weil das Gericht in Budapest gesagt hat, das ist alles Europarecht, das können wir so nicht beurteilen, ohne uns da direkt in in vom höchsten Gericht einfach mal die die Fragen beantworten zu lassen, haben die das direkt da zum EuGH geschickt.",{"text":36207,"start":20657,"end":20697},"Also das ist tatsächlich alles momentan noch im Fluss und ja, wird man sehen, wie",102,{"sentences":36210,"speaker":205,"num_words":36217,"start":20699,"end":21049},[36211,36213,36215],{"text":36212,"start":20699,"end":20717},"Jetzt ist das ja der sehr einfache Fall, ne.",{"text":36214,"start":20717,"end":20805},"Ich fang an, weiß nicht, die ersten 2 Sätze von meinem Werk irgendwie in son LLM zu füttern und das spuckt mir den Rest aus, dann ist offensichtlich klar, scheinbar war mein Text hier im Trainingsdatensatz.",{"text":36216,"start":20809,"end":21049},"Aber das eigentliche Training ist ja quasi das Geschäfts, Betriebsgeheimnis von diesen ganzen Firmen und es ist ja superintransparent, was da passiert, was die überhaupt zum Trainieren verwenden, wie sie die Daten vielleicht vorher noch aufbereiten, verkürzen, keine Ahnung, was alles, hab ich da, also also für mich als Laie seh ich da ja eigentlich überhaupt gar keine Möglichkeit, wenn wir jetzt bei unserem Beispiel bleiben, überhaupt auch nur zu verstehen, ob die programmierbaren Folgen jemals bei OpenAI gelandet sind oder nicht, weil sie ja eigentlich nicht offenlegen müssen, was sie da benutzen, oder?",139,{"sentences":36219,"speaker":857,"num_words":36230,"start":21051,"end":21284},[36220,36222,36224,36226,36228],{"text":36221,"start":21051,"end":21111},"Per heute müssen sie noch nicht offenlegen, aber nach dem AI Actwitz eine Verpflichtung geben, dass offengelegt werden muss, welche Trainingsdaten benutzt wurden.",{"text":36223,"start":21111,"end":21145},"Aber auch da ist momentan nicht klar, in welcher Granulat das erfolgen muss, ja.",{"text":36225,"start":21145,"end":21189},"Ob dann wirklich steht, wenn ich's richtig im Kopf habe, ist es tatsächlich mehr sone allgemeine Verpflichtung.",{"text":36227,"start":21192,"end":21267},"Also das Gesetz kommt ja auch erst im nächsten Jahr zur Anwendung, sodass sich da dann auch im Nachhinein erst noch rausbilden muss, wie die Praxis das handhabt, ja.",{"text":36229,"start":21267,"end":21284},"Also das ist aktuell noch nicht klar.",90,{"sentences":36232,"speaker":205,"num_words":217,"start":21286,"end":21309},[36233],{"text":36234,"start":21286,"end":21309},"Und AI Act klingt ja erst mal so sehr europäisch.",{"sentences":36236,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":21312,"end":21316},[36237,36238],{"text":592,"start":21312,"end":21313},{"text":4073,"start":21313,"end":21316},{"sentences":36240,"speaker":184,"num_words":35383,"start":21316,"end":21328},[36241],{"text":36242,"start":21316,"end":21328},"ist es auch, ja.",{"sentences":36244,"speaker":205,"num_words":36075,"start":21330,"end":21393},[36245,36247,36248,36249],{"text":36246,"start":21330,"end":21367},"Das heißt, muss sich ein Google, ein Open AI, ein Apple überhaupt daran stören?",{"text":592,"start":21370,"end":21371},{"text":21376,"start":21374,"end":21375},{"text":36250,"start":21378,"end":21393},"Sie sind ja nicht in Europa.",{"sentences":36252,"speaker":184,"num_words":36261,"start":21393,"end":21524},[36253,36255,36256,36258,36259],{"text":36254,"start":21393,"end":21406},"Die bieten's aber hier an.",{"text":21411,"start":21408,"end":21409},{"text":36257,"start":21413,"end":21470},"Also können Sie ja auch ganz Europa ausschließen, wie Sie schon mit DSGVO vorhatten, weil wie Sie so nerven, aber tun Sie nicht.",{"text":12421,"start":21470,"end":21472},{"text":36260,"start":21475,"end":21524},"Und für uns gilt das übrigens, egal ob wir's für Europa anbieten oder nicht, nur weil wir hier sitzen schon.",50,{"sentences":36263,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":21524,"end":21532},[36264],{"text":36265,"start":21524,"end":21532},"Ich wollt",{"sentences":36267,"speaker":205,"num_words":36277,"start":21532,"end":21635},[36268,36270,36272,36273,36275],{"text":36269,"start":21532,"end":21560},"grad sagen, wir wohnen ja aber auch hier, das das versteht.",{"text":36271,"start":21563,"end":21570},"Ja, ja, okay.",{"text":586,"start":21570,"end":21572},{"text":36274,"start":21575,"end":21578},"Okay, wunderbar.",{"text":36276,"start":21581,"end":21635},"Bei dem Datenschutz dabei zu bleiben, wenn meine User Daten auf meiner Plattform generieren, darf ich die dann einfach so benutzen?",38,{"sentences":36279,"speaker":184,"num_words":217,"start":21637,"end":21661},[36280],{"text":36281,"start":21637,"end":21661},"Müssen wir jetzt erst mal fragen, sind das personenbezogene Daten?",{"sentences":36283,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":21664,"end":21674},[36284],{"text":36285,"start":21664,"end":21674},"Macht das einen Unterschied?",{"sentences":36287,"speaker":184,"num_words":36293,"start":21674,"end":21725},[36288,36289,36291],{"text":592,"start":21674,"end":21676},{"text":36290,"start":21680,"end":21707},"So haben wir gar kein Datenschutzthema, wenn's keine personenbezogenen Daten sind.",{"text":36292,"start":21710,"end":21725},"Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, die",19,{"sentences":36295,"speaker":205,"num_words":246,"start":21727,"end":21757},[36296,36297],{"text":12421,"start":21727,"end":21728},{"text":36298,"start":21728,"end":21757},"Wir verweisen noch mal auf die Folge 160, zu lernen Die",{"sentences":36300,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":21757,"end":21776},[36301],{"text":36302,"start":21757,"end":21776},"Munition von so der Daten.",{"sentences":36304,"speaker":205,"num_words":36137,"start":21780,"end":21836},[36305,36307],{"text":36306,"start":21780,"end":21794},"Personenbezogene Daten unterscheidet davon.",{"text":36308,"start":21794,"end":21836},"Vielleicht, also der einfache Fall ist offensichtlich, es sind keine personenbezogene Daten, ja, dann geht das wohl.",{"sentences":36310,"speaker":184,"num_words":35051,"start":21840,"end":21937},[36311,36313],{"text":36312,"start":21840,"end":21854},"Es ist es kommt wirklich drauf an.",{"text":36314,"start":21854,"end":21937},"Also wenn aus den Daten, die generiert werden, also jemand tippt irgendwo was ein, ne, dann ist natürlich erst mal Personenbezug ganz klar da, weil irgend eine Art von ID IP Adresse oder irgendwas",{"sentences":36316,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":21939,"end":21952},[36317],{"text":36318,"start":21939,"end":21952},"kann ich ja alles weg anonymisieren.",{"sentences":36320,"speaker":184,"num_words":35311,"start":21955,"end":22172},[36321,36323,36325,36327],{"text":36322,"start":21955,"end":22033},"Genau, dafür brauchst Du dann, das ist auch eine Verarbeitung selbst, brauchst eine Rechtsgrundlage, aber wenn's dann anonym ist und legitim anonymisiert wurde, ist man dann eigentlich aus dem Datenschutz raus.",{"text":36324,"start":22033,"end":22061},"Solang der Inhalt natürlich nicht selbst irgendwie 'n Personenbezugsdatum ist.",{"text":36326,"start":22061,"end":22123},"Das heißt, wenn Du irgendwie meinen schreibst, hi, ich bin der Jan und ich wohne innen, dann hast Du da auch schon was drin.",{"text":36328,"start":22123,"end":22172},"Oder halt 'n, ne, es ist, alles hängt und steht und fällt mit Anonymisierung möglich oder nicht, glaub ich.",{"sentences":36330,"speaker":205,"num_words":35090,"start":22174,"end":22387},[36331,36333,36335,36337,36339],{"text":36332,"start":22174,"end":22215},"Und muss ich meinen Nutzerinnen grundsätzlich eine Option geben, da rauszuobten aus diesem Prozess?",{"text":36334,"start":22215,"end":22246},"Oder ist das quasi meine Geschäftsentscheidung, ob ich das anbieten will oder nicht?",{"text":36336,"start":22248,"end":22272},"Wenn ich jetzt, weiß nicht, bin eine Fitness App, so, ja.",{"text":36338,"start":22274,"end":22332},"Und ich guck mir hier alle aufgezeichneten Joggingstrecken an, 'n Modell zu trainieren mit wann laufen Leute, wie gut und wie schnell und bla.",{"text":36340,"start":22332,"end":22387},"Da interessiert mich ja nicht, ob das Hans Müller war oder der Richard oder keine Ahnung was, sondern das kann ich ja gut anonymisieren.",{"sentences":36342,"speaker":205,"num_words":36347,"start":22387,"end":22510},[36343,36345],{"text":36344,"start":22387,"end":22418},"So, und dann trainiere ich jetzt damit meinen Fitnesscoach Modell, so, ja.",{"text":36346,"start":22420,"end":22510},"Muss ich dann dabei meinen Nutzern, deren Daten ich ja verwende, eine Option geben zu sagen, ich möchte, dass ihr meine Daten nicht zum Training verwendet oder kann ich das anbieten, wenn ich möchte, bin aber nicht dazu gezwungen?",51,{"sentences":36349,"speaker":184,"num_words":36360,"start":22514,"end":22641},[36350,36352,36354,36356,36358],{"text":36351,"start":22514,"end":22568},"Also mir ist, wenn wir davon ausgehen, es sind keine personenbezogenen Daten, ist mir keine Norm bekannt, dass man das anbieten muss.",{"text":36353,"start":22568,"end":22584},"Aber wir würden andere Glocken klingeln.",{"text":36355,"start":22587,"end":22614},"Ich würde erst mal sagen, okay, warum, wofür machen wir diese Verarbeitung?",{"text":36357,"start":22614,"end":22627},"Geht's sind irgendwie Gesundheitsdatenrichtungen?",{"text":36359,"start":22631,"end":22641},"Dann haben wir da Riesenproblem",49,{"sentences":36362,"speaker":205,"num_words":217,"start":22644,"end":22671},[36363],{"text":36364,"start":22644,"end":22671},"Ja, das ist, was war das alles allgemeine Datenschutz wahrgenommen.",{"sentences":36366,"speaker":184,"num_words":36293,"start":22675,"end":22718},[36367,36369],{"text":36368,"start":22675,"end":22683},"Oder auch KI Fragen.",{"text":36370,"start":22683,"end":22718},"Da gibt's auch eine lange Liste an Themen, die man nicht anfassen darf mit KI.",{"sentences":36372,"speaker":205,"num_words":857,"start":22718,"end":22724},[36373,36374],{"text":21376,"start":22718,"end":22720},{"text":22725,"start":22723,"end":22724},{"sentences":36376,"speaker":184,"num_words":36383,"start":22727,"end":22779},[36377,36379,36381],{"text":36378,"start":22727,"end":22745},"Ein Blick ins Gesetz erspart viel Geschwätz.",{"text":36380,"start":22748,"end":22760},"Die kann ich nicht alle auswendig.",{"text":36382,"start":22760,"end":22779},"Ist zum Glück auch nicht unser Ding.",20,{"sentences":36385,"speaker":205,"num_words":36091,"start":22779,"end":22845},[36386],{"text":36387,"start":22779,"end":22845},"Und die darf ich mit KI nicht anfassen im Sinne von, ich darf sie mit KI nicht verarbeiten oder ich darf sie nicht nutzen, meine KI zu trainieren?",{"sentences":36389,"speaker":184,"num_words":246,"start":22848,"end":22881},[36390],{"text":36391,"start":22848,"end":22881},"Es gibt verbotene Praktiken im KI Bereich, die sind in Artikel 5.",{"sentences":36393,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":22881,"end":22894},[36394],{"text":36395,"start":22881,"end":22894},"Das klingt schon ominös.",{"sentences":36397,"speaker":184,"num_words":34993,"start":22897,"end":22919},[36398,36399],{"text":592,"start":22897,"end":22898},{"text":36400,"start":22901,"end":22919},"Und Da steht da so drin und jetzt",{"sentences":36402,"speaker":205,"num_words":35036,"start":22919,"end":22934},[36403,36405],{"text":36404,"start":22919,"end":22931},"musst Du auch vorlesen.",{"text":22935,"start":22931,"end":22934},{"sentences":36407,"speaker":184,"num_words":35297,"start":22937,"end":23147},[36408,36410,36412],{"text":36409,"start":22937,"end":22962},"vorlesen geht nicht, sonst wären wir heut nicht mehr fertig.",{"text":36411,"start":22962,"end":22977},"Das sind wir sehr lang.",{"text":36413,"start":22980,"end":23147},"Und dann gibt's noch Hochrisiko KI Systeme und da auch noch eine Liste an Themen und Arten der Verarbeitung, die man nicht mache sollte oder nur unter über so Hochrisiko KI Systeme darf man aber nur, wenn man lange Liste an Anforderungen einhält, die ich wirklich nicht kann und jedem raten würde, macht das nur, wenn das wirklich euer Hauptgeschäftszweck ist, weil es ist sehr viel Arbeit.",{"sentences":36415,"speaker":205,"num_words":36383,"start":23150,"end":23200},[36416],{"text":36417,"start":23150,"end":23200},"Peggy, hast Du da die Executive Summary, warum es Sachen gibt, die ich mit meiner KI nicht machen können, darf?",{"sentences":36419,"speaker":857,"num_words":36208,"start":23203,"end":23475},[36420,36422,36424,36426,36428],{"text":36421,"start":23203,"end":23277},"Also die Thematik ist so, bisschen die gerät man eben durch die durch diese gesundheitsbezogenen Daten eventuell in dem Bereich Medizinprodukt, was in diesen Hochrisiko KI Bereich fällt.",{"text":36423,"start":23280,"end":23310},"Das ist, glaub ich, in die Richtung, in die in die Du gehst, ne.",{"text":36425,"start":23310,"end":23369},"Und wenn man Hochrisiko KI ist, dann gelten eben deutlich strengere Anforderungen an den Anbieter dieser dieser dieser App oder dieser dieser KI.",{"text":36427,"start":23372,"end":23402},"Genau, also zum Beispiel, was bestimmt die, was was bestimmt sie unter anderem?",{"text":36429,"start":23406,"end":23475},"Man muss man muss das in der EU Datenballe registrieren, beispielsweise das Medizinprodukt und ganze Reihe an anderen Compliance Regeln, die man einhalten muss.",{"sentences":36431,"speaker":857,"num_words":34993,"start":23475,"end":23501},[36432],{"text":36433,"start":23475,"end":23501},"Also Konformitätsbewertung und ja, also wirklich eine ganze Litanei.",{"sentences":36435,"speaker":205,"num_words":36444,"start":23505,"end":23968},[36436,36438,36440,36442],{"text":36437,"start":23505,"end":23546},"Ist da ein Kriterium auch von son bisschen versuchen, Diskriminierung im Modell zu verhindern?",{"text":36439,"start":23549,"end":23627},"Ich hab da vor Kurzem mal 'n spannenden Vortrag zugehört, was so, ne, Baiers, der schon im Datensatz drin ist, wird ja dann multipliziert potenziell von meinem Modell, ja.",{"text":36441,"start":23630,"end":23787},"Und wenn dann natürlich das Modell dafür verantwortlich ist, weiß nicht, im medizinischen Bereich, im Sicherheitsbereich, irgendwo Entscheidungen zu treffen, na, geht's dann so was, dass ich quasi als Anbieter mehr darauf achten muss, keinen Bias in meinen Datensätzen zu haben, keinen Bias in meinem Produkt zu haben, als das jetzt vielleicht bei, weiß nicht, nur mal einem Chat GPT oder so der Fall wär.",{"text":36443,"start":23790,"end":23968},"Ist das so der der Hintergedanke oder geht's einfach nur darum, wir wollen einfach nur wissen, also geht es dem Gesetzgeber wirklich eine eine spürbare Verbesserung der Sicherheit da drin Oder geht's in erster Linie darum, na, wir wollen überhaupt erst mal erfassen, wo das in diesem Hochsicherheitsbereich, in diesem kritischen Bereich überhaupt verwendet wird und Hauptsache, es wird erst mal registriert und dann schauen wir mal, wie wir weitermachen.",178,{"sentences":36446,"speaker":857,"num_words":35233,"start":23971,"end":24276},[36447,36449,36451,36453,36455],{"text":36448,"start":23971,"end":24012},"Nee, dem Gesetzgeber geht's, glaube ich, darum, einfach die KI so in unterschiedlich Risikoklassen einzuclustern, ja.",{"text":36450,"start":24012,"end":24074},"Also man hat halt gesagt, es gibt verbotene KI Systeme, ja, die sind schon seit Februar 25 dürfen die in der EU nicht mehr angeboten werden.",{"text":36452,"start":24074,"end":24150},"Und dann hat er halt diese Hochrisiko KI Systeme und die eben besonderen Anforderungen unterliegen, eben sicherzustellen, dass diese Produktsicherheit gegeben ist, wenn Du so willst, ja?",{"text":36454,"start":24150,"end":24234},"Und dadrunter sagt man, na ja, dann gibt's halt so die Chatbots und und so ganz einfach strukturierte KI KIs, die diesen Anforderungen eben nicht genügen müssen, sondern die nur Transparenzpflichten unterliegen, ja.",{"text":36456,"start":24234,"end":24276},"Also sprich, Du musst eben den den Nutzern dieser KI mitteilen, dass sie mit 'ner KI interagieren.",{"sentences":36458,"speaker":857,"num_words":35297,"start":24280,"end":24493},[36459,36461,36463,36465,36467],{"text":36460,"start":24280,"end":24346},"Das ist so für diese niedrigste Stufe und für die anderen versucht man eben, die so sicher wie möglich auf dem europäischen Markt anbieten zu können.",{"text":36462,"start":24346,"end":24372},"Und das hat man halt versucht, so zu verallgemeinern, ne.",{"text":36464,"start":24372,"end":24441},"Ich meine, Du kannst dir vorstellen, da fallen Flugzeuge drunter, da fallen aber eben auch Medizinprodukte drunter, ja, also was ja 'n wirklich ganz großes Konglomerat ist.",{"text":36466,"start":24443,"end":24467},"Und das macht's nicht leicht, das dann so zu verallgemeinern.",{"text":36468,"start":24471,"end":24493},"Und diese diese Registrierungspflicht ist nur eine der Pflichten.",{"sentences":36470,"speaker":857,"num_words":34993,"start":24493,"end":24519},[36471],{"text":36472,"start":24493,"end":24519},"Also das ist anderes eben insbesondere Dokumentationspflichten und Ähnliches.",{"sentences":36474,"speaker":205,"num_words":36481,"start":24522,"end":24619},[36475,36477,36479],{"text":36476,"start":24522,"end":24539},"Jetzt habt ihr mich aber trotzdem neugierig gemacht.",{"text":36478,"start":24539,"end":24554},"Was sind denn diese verbotenen Fälle?",{"text":36480,"start":24554,"end":24619},"Also wenn selbst bei Flugzeugen und Medizinprodukten in Anführungszeichen nur genauer hin, also ne, noch nicht das verboten ist, was gibt's denn da noch oben drüber?",40,{"sentences":36483,"speaker":184,"num_words":35031,"start":24623,"end":24635},[36484],{"text":36485,"start":24623,"end":24635},"Ich komm gleich mit der Liste.",{"sentences":36487,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":24638,"end":24646},[36488],{"text":36489,"start":24638,"end":24646},"Ist sie so lang?",{"sentences":36491,"speaker":857,"num_words":36075,"start":24649,"end":24717},[36492,36494],{"text":36493,"start":24649,"end":24709},"Also Social Scoring ist beispielsweise ein Fall, ja, dann eine ganze Reihe von Anwendungen im Bereich der biometrischen, sorry, Fernidentifizierung.",{"text":36495,"start":24713,"end":24717},"Hast Du's?",{"sentences":36497,"speaker":184,"num_words":35265,"start":24717,"end":24872},[36498,36500,36502,36504,36506],{"text":36499,"start":24717,"end":24767},"Okay, ich hab jetzt hier, also so was wie unterschwellig, absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, ne.",{"text":36501,"start":24767,"end":24817},"Ausnutzung von Schutzbedürftigkeit wegen Alterbehinderung, besondere soziale ökonomischer Lage, soziale Bewertung, also Social Scoring.",{"text":36503,"start":24822,"end":24845},"Präventive Strafbarkeits- oder Risikobewertung in dem Bereich.",{"text":36505,"start":24845,"end":24864},"Aufbauerweiter kein Minority Report.",{"text":36507,"start":24867,"end":24872},"Ja, so was.",{"sentences":36509,"speaker":184,"num_words":36518,"start":24875,"end":25077},[36510,36512,36514,36516],{"text":36511,"start":24875,"end":24951},"Aufbau von Erweiterung von gesund Gesichtterkennungsdatenbanken durch ungezieltes Graping von Gesichtern, Emotionsableitung in Arbeit und Bildung, außer wenn der Einsatz aus medizinischer Sicherheitsgründen erfolgt.",{"text":36513,"start":24955,"end":24997},"Biometrische Kategorisierung, Echtzeitfernerkennung, biometrischer Merkmal in öffentlich zugänglichen Räumen, so was.",{"text":36515,"start":24999,"end":25058},"Also Sachen, wo man sagt, okay, da kann wirklich Unsinn gemacht werden, was gegen unsere Grundrechte und ne, weitergeleitet halt verstößt.",{"text":36517,"start":25058,"end":25077},"Und das ist dann einfach von vornherein verboten.",64,{"sentences":36520,"speaker":205,"num_words":35197,"start":25080,"end":25136},[36521,36523],{"text":36522,"start":25080,"end":25117},"Aber es es klingt erst mal so nach alles eher Themen, die gesellschaftlich problematisch sind Ja.",{"text":36524,"start":25119,"end":25136},"Und nicht unbedingt technisch 'n Problem werden.",{"sentences":36526,"speaker":184,"num_words":35074,"start":25138,"end":25170},[36527],{"text":36528,"start":25138,"end":25170},"Genau, das sind alles Sachen, die auch hoffentlich niemand von sich aus machen wollte.",{"sentences":36530,"speaker":205,"num_words":35492,"start":25173,"end":25212},[36531],{"text":36532,"start":25173,"end":25212},"Also ich weiß nicht, dieses Social Scoring, da kannst Du ja in China gut punkten mit.",{"sentences":36534,"speaker":184,"num_words":36383,"start":25215,"end":25267},[36535],{"text":36536,"start":25215,"end":25267},"Okay, niemand, der jetzt hier zuhört und daheim sich überlegt, wie kann ich denn die KI sinnvoll und zulässig nutzen.",{"sentences":36538,"speaker":205,"num_words":35302,"start":25271,"end":25321},[36539,36540,36541,36543],{"text":12421,"start":25271,"end":25272},{"text":25278,"start":25276,"end":25277},{"text":36542,"start":25277,"end":25312},"Aber weil Du gerade einen dieser verbotenen Punkte angesprochen hast, wie war das?",{"text":36544,"start":25312,"end":25321},"Manipulieren, bewusst manipulieren,",{"sentences":36546,"speaker":184,"num_words":35302,"start":25324,"end":25380},[36547,36549],{"text":36548,"start":25324,"end":25376},"unterschwellig absichtlich manipulative oder täuschende Techniken, die das Verhalten wesentlich verzerren und dadurch voraussichtlich erheblichen Schaden verursachen.",{"text":1532,"start":25379,"end":25380},{"sentences":36551,"speaker":205,"num_words":35572,"start":25380,"end":25398},[36552],{"text":36553,"start":25380,"end":25398},"das schreit ja so nach Deep Fake?",{"sentences":36555,"speaker":184,"num_words":35155,"start":25401,"end":25419},[36556],{"text":36557,"start":25401,"end":25419},"Das schreit nach Deep Fake unter anderem, ja,",{"sentences":36559,"speaker":205,"num_words":184,"start":25421,"end":25422},[36560],{"text":4024,"start":25421,"end":25422},{"sentences":36562,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":25426,"end":25437},[36563],{"text":36564,"start":25426,"end":25437},"Und Ist es aber nicht.",{"sentences":36566,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":25437,"end":25446},[36567],{"text":36568,"start":25437,"end":25446},"Ist es aber nicht?",{"sentences":36570,"speaker":857,"num_words":35383,"start":25448,"end":25457},[36571,36572],{"text":586,"start":25448,"end":25449},{"text":36573,"start":25449,"end":25457},"Deep Fake ist",{"sentences":36575,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":25459,"end":25468},[36576],{"text":36577,"start":25459,"end":25468},"Also ist was anderes.",{"sentences":36579,"speaker":184,"num_words":217,"start":25471,"end":25496},[36580],{"text":36581,"start":25471,"end":25496},"Deep Fake, aber Deep Fake kann das sein, so, oder?",{"sentences":36583,"speaker":857,"num_words":35192,"start":25496,"end":25536},[36584,36586,36588],{"text":36585,"start":25496,"end":25507},"Deep Fake ist was anderes.",{"text":36587,"start":25507,"end":25524},"Deep Fake steht auch im AI, Ja.",{"text":36589,"start":25526,"end":25536},"Aber das ist nicht verboten.",{"sentences":36591,"speaker":184,"num_words":35031,"start":25539,"end":25555},[36592],{"text":36593,"start":25539,"end":25555},"Nee, genau, ist das nicht verboten.",{"sentences":36595,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":25558,"end":25569},[36596],{"text":36597,"start":25558,"end":25569},"Nicht ganz so verboten wie",{"sentences":36599,"speaker":205,"num_words":792,"start":25571,"end":25725},[36600,36602,36604],{"text":36601,"start":25571,"end":25688},"Also, wie wie ich das als Laie grade so gehört hab, ja, klingt das für mich nach, ich nutz jetzt hier son Bilder- oder Videogenerator, irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, Bildmaterial von potenziellen Menschenrechtsverletzungen zu generieren, dann irgendwie damit Stimmungen zu machen oder so was, ja.",{"text":36603,"start":25688,"end":25711},"Also bewusst falsches Material, damit irgendwie Leute zu manipulieren.",{"text":36605,"start":25714,"end":25725},"Das ist aber nicht das, was",{"sentences":36607,"speaker":184,"num_words":36618,"start":25725,"end":25905},[36608,36610,36612,36614,36616],{"text":36609,"start":25725,"end":25732},"Du meinst?",{"text":36611,"start":25732,"end":25798},"Nee, das, also bewusst falsch, in den Verboten geht's das in Verkehr bringen, die in den Inbetriebnahme, die Verwendung von KI Systemen insgesamt.",{"text":36613,"start":25802,"end":25832},"Und bei Deep Fakes ist der Begriff sehr viel weiter definiert.",{"text":36615,"start":25835,"end":25871},"Also im Gesetz gibt's Definitionen, meine ich fast immer, die für dieses Gesetz dann so gelten.",{"text":36617,"start":25874,"end":25905},"Und in Artikel 3 sind die alle schön aufgelistet, da unter anderem gibt's da.",66,{"sentences":36620,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":25905,"end":25917},[36621],{"text":36622,"start":25905,"end":25917},"Vielleicht wollen wir das einmal",{"sentences":36624,"speaker":205,"num_words":35181,"start":25919,"end":26115},[36625,36626,36628,36630,36632],{"text":12421,"start":25919,"end":25920},{"text":36627,"start":25920,"end":25940},"Ja, bevor wir da aber da hinkommen.",{"text":36629,"start":25943,"end":26042},"Das, was ich aber eben beschrieben habe, ja, also ich ich fälsch dir meine Bilder, irgendwie Stimmung zu machen, das ja schon, unabhängig davon, ob das jetzt Siefeg nennen oder nicht, das ist aber schon das, was damit gemeint ist, oder?",{"text":36631,"start":26044,"end":26085},"Weil worauf ich hinauswill, ist eigentlich der Punkt, das lässt sich ja heute schon bewerkstelligen mit Ja.",{"text":36633,"start":26087,"end":26115},"Relativ einfachen Mitteln, ne, also Bildergenerierung und so was alles.",{"sentences":36635,"speaker":205,"num_words":36643,"start":26119,"end":26305},[36636,36638,36639,36640,36642],{"text":36637,"start":26119,"end":26144},"Das lässt sich ja relativ schwer kontrollieren, wofür dann Bildergenerierung genutzt wird.",{"text":592,"start":26144,"end":26146},{"text":592,"start":26149,"end":26150},{"text":36641,"start":26150,"end":26301},"Ich mach jetzt hier 'n Bild von meinem verhungernden Kind und ob ich jetzt behaupte, dass es irgendwo gerade im Sudan passiert oder ob ich behaupte, ich brauch das für Bebilderungen von meinem Fantasy Roman, ja, das ist ja son sehr schmaler Grat, so technisch dazwischen, aber was ich damit mach, ist ja dann quasi eine ganz andere Geschichte.",{"text":15224,"start":26304,"end":26305},74,{"sentences":36645,"speaker":205,"num_words":36650,"start":26307,"end":26571},[36646,36648],{"text":36647,"start":26307,"end":26446},"Und das drängt ja dann jetzt schon die Frage auf, sind wir wieder bei dem Anbieter, ja, inwieweit der sich darum kümmern muss, dass diese Sachen, die bei ihm alles generiert werden, eben nicht für diesen verbotenen Use Case, den Richard grade so schön vorgelesen hat, beschrieben werden, sondern eben nur für in Anführungszeichen legitime Zwecke benutzt wird, ja.",{"text":36649,"start":26446,"end":26571},"Und wenn das jetzt ja doch da dieses Verbot gibt, dann stell ich mir schon die Frage, ich jetzt als, weiß ich nicht, Nano Banana Google Dingsbums muss jetzt gucken, dass die Bilder, die ich ausspucke, idealerweise gar nicht dazu geeignet werden, diesen diesen Fall abzudecken, ja.",106,{"sentences":36652,"speaker":184,"num_words":35155,"start":26571,"end":26595},[36653],{"text":36654,"start":26571,"end":26595},"Deswegen ist der Text so lang, ums abzukürzen.",{"sentences":36656,"speaker":205,"num_words":35036,"start":26600,"end":26611},[36657],{"text":36658,"start":26600,"end":26611},"Wie immer bei diesen Gesetzen.",{"sentences":36660,"speaker":184,"num_words":35265,"start":26611,"end":26734},[36661],{"text":36662,"start":26611,"end":26734},"Im Text steht nämlich mit dem Ziel oder der Wirkung, ne, also wenn Du ein System entwickelst und anbietest oder benutzt mit dem klaren Ziel, das zu tun, wenn dein allgemeines KI System ist, auch realistische Bilder darzustellen, ist das vielleicht nicht die Zielwirkung?",{"sentences":36664,"speaker":205,"num_words":36383,"start":26738,"end":26788},[36665],{"text":36666,"start":26738,"end":26788},"Also ich darf keine Fake News Plattform bauen, die nur am laufenden Band Fake News produziert und auf Facebook postet.",{"sentences":36668,"speaker":184,"num_words":184,"start":26788,"end":26791},[36669],{"text":16949,"start":26788,"end":26791},{"sentences":36671,"speaker":205,"num_words":35003,"start":26791,"end":26826},[36672],{"text":36673,"start":26791,"end":26826},"Aber ich darf benutzen, mir für meine Verschwörungstheorien die geeigneten Bilder zu generieren.",{"sentences":36675,"speaker":184,"num_words":35383,"start":26829,"end":26838},[36676,36677],{"text":592,"start":26829,"end":26830},{"text":36678,"start":26833,"end":26838},"Keine Ahnung, ja.",{"sentences":36680,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":26840,"end":26856},[36681,36682,36683,36685],{"text":12421,"start":26840,"end":26841},{"text":592,"start":26841,"end":26844},{"text":36684,"start":26844,"end":26853},"Traurig aber war.",{"text":12421,"start":26853,"end":26856},{"sentences":36687,"speaker":184,"num_words":35155,"start":26856,"end":26882},[36688,36689,36690],{"text":592,"start":26856,"end":26858},{"text":26863,"start":26861,"end":26862},{"text":36691,"start":26862,"end":26882},"Sollen wir zu Deep Facts springen?",{"sentences":36693,"speaker":205,"num_words":35412,"start":26882,"end":26966},[36694,36696,36698],{"text":36695,"start":26882,"end":26913},"Wir haben Ich hab aber nicht schon Deep Facts, ja.",{"text":36697,"start":26915,"end":26921},"Das ist großartig.",{"text":36699,"start":26924,"end":26966},"Also offensichtlich ist Deep Fake nicht das, was ich grade gedacht hab, was es ist, sondern was ist es denn dann?",{"sentences":36701,"speaker":184,"num_words":35246,"start":26966,"end":27089},[36702],{"text":36703,"start":26966,"end":27089},"Deep Fake ist so viel mehr, leider, weil das geht mir auch aus dem Wort, ich selber verbinde mit dem Wort eigentlich auch Deep Fake ist, wenn ich dadurch negativ beeinflusst werde und es von vornherein mich irgendwie eine in eine Richtung stimmt, die die also mich manipuliert.",{"sentences":36705,"speaker":205,"num_words":36005,"start":27093,"end":27162},[36706,36707,36709,36710],{"text":27096,"start":27093,"end":27094},{"text":36708,"start":27094,"end":27111},"Hätte ich jetzt gar nicht, ne?",{"text":27116,"start":27111,"end":27114},{"text":36711,"start":27114,"end":27162},"Für mich wär Deep Fake tatsächlich einfach nur Technik, die benutzt wird, im Prinzip fotorealistische Täuschungen",{"sentences":36713,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":27166,"end":27170},[36714],{"text":36715,"start":27166,"end":27170},"zu machen.",{"sentences":36717,"speaker":205,"num_words":36724,"start":27170,"end":27394},[36718,36720,36722],{"text":36719,"start":27170,"end":27357},"Also es gab ja mal, ich weiß nicht, ob Du das gesehen hast, vor 'n paar Monaten schon, als noch Wahlkampf war, diese von von der Bild sone Kampagne, wo sie sone Olaf Scholz Rede nachgemacht haben und der halt im Prinzip erzählt so, wie ärgerlich doch das mit der Bild ist, weil die ja so tollen Journalismus betreiben und das den Politikern so schwer machen als abgesehen davon, dass das inhaltlich eine schwierige Aussage ist.",{"text":36721,"start":27359,"end":27376},"Ist das das, was ich was ich meine?",{"text":36723,"start":27376,"end":27394},"Ja, Du siehst Aber das ist ja",91,{"sentences":36726,"speaker":184,"num_words":35031,"start":27394,"end":27413},[36727],{"text":36728,"start":27394,"end":27413},"auch eine Beeinflussung, eine ganz klarer.",{"sentences":36730,"speaker":205,"num_words":36741,"start":27417,"end":27675},[36731,36733,36735,36737,36739],{"text":36732,"start":27417,"end":27530},"Ja, aber das liegt ja, aber ich das ich würde das nicht unbedingt mit dem Deep Fake konnieren, sondern das Deep Fake ist für mich einfach nur so, da hat halt jemand 'n Video von dem Olaf Scholz gemacht und ihm Worte in den Mund gelegt, so.",{"text":36734,"start":27530,"end":27565},"Ob das jetzt gut ist oder schlecht oder böse gemeint oder nicht, ist mir vollkommen egal.",{"text":36736,"start":27569,"end":27623},"Da ist da ist ein Produkt entstanden, ein eine Aufnahme, ein Dokument, was er quasi nie so selber von sich gegeben hat.",{"text":36738,"start":27623,"end":27649},"So und das wäre jetzt so meine Definition davon.",{"text":36740,"start":27649,"end":27675},"Ja, dann Das Schöne ist, es gibt ja eine Definition.",104,{"sentences":36743,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":27675,"end":27688},[36744,36745],{"text":16949,"start":27675,"end":27678},{"text":36746,"start":27680,"end":27688},"AI Act, AI",{"sentences":36748,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":27690,"end":27694},[36749],{"text":36750,"start":27690,"end":27694},"Act, ja.",{"sentences":36752,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":27694,"end":27706},[36753],{"text":36754,"start":27694,"end":27706},"Die sagt ziemlich genau das.",{"sentences":36756,"speaker":857,"num_words":857,"start":27706,"end":27712},[36757],{"text":36758,"start":27706,"end":27712},"Die sagt",{"sentences":36760,"speaker":205,"num_words":34998,"start":27712,"end":27719},[36761],{"text":36762,"start":27712,"end":27719},"ziemlich genau was?",{"sentences":36764,"speaker":184,"num_words":35265,"start":27719,"end":27860},[36765,36767,36769,36770,36771],{"text":36766,"start":27719,"end":27733},"Das, was Du gesagt hast.",{"text":36768,"start":27733,"end":27745},"Du sollst Bücher machen.",{"text":592,"start":27745,"end":27749},{"text":990,"start":27752,"end":27753},{"text":36772,"start":27756,"end":27860},"Also Deep Fake ist ein durch KI erzeugtes oder manipuliertes Bild, Ton oder Videoinhalt der wirklichen Personengegenständen, Orden, Einrichtigen oder Ereignissen ähnelt und in 1 Person fälschlicherweise als echt- oder wahrheitsgemäß erscheinen würde.",{"sentences":36774,"speaker":184,"num_words":35492,"start":27863,"end":27906},[36775],{"text":36776,"start":27863,"end":27906},"Heißt, wenn ich jetzt mit meinem Hund G, 'n Foto mache und ihm irgendwas Lustiges anziehe,",{"sentences":36778,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":27910,"end":27920},[36779],{"text":36780,"start":27910,"end":27920},"ist das 'n Diebweg.",{"sentences":36782,"speaker":184,"num_words":35003,"start":27920,"end":27955},[36783,36785,36786,36787],{"text":36784,"start":27920,"end":27932},"Ist das schon ein Diebweg?",{"text":592,"start":27936,"end":27937},{"text":592,"start":27940,"end":27941},{"text":36788,"start":27943,"end":27955},"Und dann müssen wir gucken, was",{"sentences":36790,"speaker":205,"num_words":35003,"start":27957,"end":27992},[36791,36793,36794,36796],{"text":36792,"start":27957,"end":27971},"Und das ist jetzt per se verboten?",{"text":27976,"start":27974,"end":27975},{"text":36795,"start":27979,"end":27984},"Ach so.",{"text":36797,"start":27984,"end":27992},"Nicht mehr verboten.",{"sentences":36799,"speaker":184,"num_words":35407,"start":27994,"end":28057},[36800,36802],{"text":36801,"start":27994,"end":28050},"Da geht's dann eher drum, okay, wir sind 'n Deep Fake und dann, was darf man dann damit machen oder was muss man machen?",{"text":36803,"start":28052,"end":28057},"Und zwar Transparenzpflichten.",{"sentences":36805,"speaker":205,"num_words":36812,"start":28059,"end":28219},[36806,36808,36810],{"text":36807,"start":28059,"end":28116},"Aber okay, also darf ich, Du darfst wahrscheinlich von deinem Hund 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil ist ja auch nur 'n Hund, so.",{"text":36809,"start":28116,"end":28188},"Du darfst wahrscheinlich auch von dir selbst 'n Dieb Fake machen, weil bist Du ja selbst und Du hast ja dein, ist ja dein eigenes Bild, kannst damit machen, was Du willst.",{"text":36811,"start":28191,"end":28219},"Wenn ich jetzt von dir 'n Deepfake mach, darf ich das machen?",67,{"sentences":36814,"speaker":184,"num_words":35031,"start":28221,"end":28235},[36815],{"text":36816,"start":28221,"end":28235},"Das machen oder was damit machen?",{"sentences":36818,"speaker":205,"num_words":35400,"start":28235,"end":28324},[36819,36821,36823],{"text":36820,"start":28235,"end":28253},"Darf ich's erst mal für mich nur machen?",{"text":36822,"start":28253,"end":28263},"Ich guck's alleine an.",{"text":36824,"start":28263,"end":28324},"Ich mach 'n Foto von dir im Sombrero am Arbeitsplatz und häng und guck mir das nur selber für mich an, weil ich lustig find.",{"sentences":36826,"speaker":857,"num_words":34998,"start":28324,"end":28332},[36827],{"text":36828,"start":28324,"end":28332},"Das darfst Du.",{"sentences":36830,"speaker":184,"num_words":184,"start":28332,"end":28335},[36831],{"text":592,"start":28332,"end":28335},{"sentences":36833,"speaker":857,"num_words":36293,"start":28335,"end":28394},[36834,36835],{"text":592,"start":28335,"end":28338},{"text":36836,"start":28341,"end":28394},"Schwieriger Witz, wenn's Du dann deinen Kollegen, deinen Freunden und möglicherweise irgendwo noch auf deinem Instagram Account veröffentlichst.",{"sentences":36838,"speaker":205,"num_words":35302,"start":28397,"end":28446},[36839,36840,36842,36843],{"text":12421,"start":28397,"end":28398},{"text":36841,"start":28402,"end":28425},"Also dieses Sombreo Beispiel war ja noch relativ milde.",{"text":592,"start":28425,"end":28428},{"text":36844,"start":28431,"end":28446},"Aber da gibt's ja schon problematischere Fälle.",{"sentences":36846,"speaker":857,"num_words":184,"start":28446,"end":28450},[36847],{"text":28452,"start":28446,"end":28450},{"sentences":36849,"speaker":205,"num_words":35192,"start":28454,"end":28499},[36850,36852,36853,36854,36855],{"text":36851,"start":28454,"end":28479},"Und auch das dürft ich machen, solang ich's nur für mich mache?",{"text":592,"start":28483,"end":28484},{"text":28489,"start":28487,"end":28488},{"text":12421,"start":28491,"end":28492},{"text":36152,"start":28494,"end":28499},{"sentences":36857,"speaker":205,"num_words":36865,"start":28501,"end":28580},[36858,36859,36861,36863,36864],{"text":12421,"start":28501,"end":28502},{"text":36860,"start":28504,"end":28557},"Und dann darf ich aber quasi, egal wie harmlos oder nicht harmlos mein Deep Fake jetzt ist, das erst mal mit niemand anderem teilen.",{"text":36862,"start":28560,"end":28573},"Außer Richard hat wahrscheinlich zugestimmt.",{"text":586,"start":28576,"end":28577},{"text":27116,"start":28577,"end":28580},32,{"sentences":36867,"speaker":857,"num_words":35036,"start":28582,"end":28596},[36868],{"text":36869,"start":28582,"end":28596},"Das Wenn Du zustimmst, dann",{"sentences":36871,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":28598,"end":28604},[36872],{"text":36873,"start":28598,"end":28604},"Aber das Teil",{"sentences":36875,"speaker":857,"num_words":184,"start":28607,"end":28608},[36876],{"text":411,"start":28607,"end":28608},{"sentences":36878,"speaker":184,"num_words":35412,"start":28612,"end":28693},[36879,36881,36883],{"text":36880,"start":28612,"end":28636},"das steht ja nichts über wo und wie Du teilen darfst.",{"text":36882,"start":28636,"end":28656},"Es steht eher darum, es geht Transparenzpflichten.",{"text":36884,"start":28659,"end":28693},"Musst Du sagen, dass es ein Deepfake ist oder nicht, weil man's ja nicht erkennen kann?",{"sentences":36886,"speaker":205,"num_words":35400,"start":28696,"end":28783},[36887],{"text":36888,"start":28696,"end":28783},"Also selbst wenn ich dich nicht vorher frage, aber wenn ich jetzt jedem das Bild zeige und sag, übrigens, das ist ein Deepfake, aber sieht der Richard nicht lustig aus mit seinem dann ist das auch okay.",{"sentences":36890,"speaker":184,"num_words":792,"start":28783,"end":28945},[36891],{"text":36892,"start":28783,"end":28945},"Ich würde mich jetzt beschränken auf den AI Act und nicht auf etwaige Persönlichkeitsrechte und Datenschutz, dann machen wir alles durcheinander, aber rein von AI Act her, wenn ich meine Einwilligung für die Aufnahme gegeben habe und die und für die Öffentlichkeit auf Social Media und so weiter, wär das kein Problem, solang Du klar machst, das Bild wurde bearbeitet.",{"sentences":36894,"speaker":205,"num_words":857,"start":28948,"end":28953},[36895],{"text":36896,"start":28948,"end":28953},"Und Das",{"sentences":36898,"speaker":857,"num_words":35407,"start":28953,"end":29024},[36899],{"text":36900,"start":28953,"end":29024},"heißt, dir droht kein Bußgeld, sodass der Richard das eventuell trotzdem nicht gut findet und aus zivilrechtlichen Unterlassungen und Ähnliches fordert, das kann dir natürlich trotzdem passieren.",{"sentences":36902,"speaker":205,"num_words":36293,"start":29026,"end":29077},[36903],{"text":36904,"start":29026,"end":29077},"Und jetzt spannen wir vielleicht den Bogen zurück zu, was ist quasi handgemacht und was ist er Ärger gemacht?",{"sentences":36906,"speaker":184,"num_words":36383,"start":29080,"end":29131},[36907,36909],{"text":36908,"start":29080,"end":29107},"Wobei, vielleicht vielleicht vielleicht sollte ich mal eine Aussage visieren.",{"text":36910,"start":29111,"end":29131},"Es kommt darauf an, Du musst es nicht immer kennzeichnen.",{"sentences":36912,"speaker":205,"num_words":35639,"start":29134,"end":29402},[36913,36914,36916,36918,36920],{"text":16949,"start":29134,"end":29135},{"text":36915,"start":29135,"end":29180},"Meine Frage wär nämlich gewesen, ich kann ja mit AI relativ viel an sonem Bild verändern, ja.",{"text":36917,"start":29180,"end":29297},"Es gibt ja heutzutage, also es es fängt ja schon damit an, dass wenn ich mit meinem iPhone irgendwie 'n Foto mach, da ja automatisch schon AI irgendwie mit am Start ist, 'n bisschen Belichtung und 'n bisschen HDR und den Bildausschnitt vielleicht dynamisch zu wählen und keine Ahnung.",{"text":36919,"start":29297,"end":29347},"Und das ist ja quasi auch schon mit AI entstanden, dieses Bild hätte ohne AI quasi so gar nicht existieren können, ja.",{"text":36921,"start":29349,"end":29402},"Und da da wär jetzt meine Frage, wie viel muss da denn verfälscht sein, es quasi als Deep Fake deklarieren zu müssen?",{"sentences":36923,"speaker":184,"num_words":35017,"start":29405,"end":29490},[36924,36926,36928,36929,36931],{"text":36925,"start":29405,"end":29419},"Aus Sicht 1 durchschnittlichen Verbrauchers.",{"text":36927,"start":29423,"end":29455},"Also durch sich durchschnittlichen, der 1 durchsichtigen Verbrauchers, der sehr transparent ist.",{"text":592,"start":29458,"end":29459},{"text":36930,"start":29459,"end":29471},"Das ist schwer zu beantworten.",{"text":36932,"start":29471,"end":29490},"Das muss man im Einzelfall eben gucken.",{"sentences":36934,"speaker":184,"num_words":35181,"start":29493,"end":29689},[36935,36937,36939,36941,36943],{"text":36936,"start":29493,"end":29548},"Also es kommt, ich glaube, es kommt sehr viel, das steht leider nicht so da, aber es kommt sehr viel auf diese Täuschungswirkung an.",{"text":36938,"start":29548,"end":29576},"Wie, in welche Richtung kannst Du, würdest Du jemanden damit täuschen?",{"text":36940,"start":29579,"end":29646},"Da das macht das natürlich alles scharf, aber rein von der Definition her ist es 'n Deepfake und dann muss man's eigentlich kennzeichnen, außer es gibt 2 Ausnahmen.",{"text":36942,"start":29648,"end":29685},"Man ist macht das Ganze zur Aufdeckung, Verhütung, Ermittlung, Verfolgung von Straftaten.",{"text":29691,"start":29688,"end":29689},{"sentences":36945,"speaker":184,"num_words":36383,"start":29693,"end":29739},[36946,36948],{"text":36947,"start":29693,"end":29730},"Und die Ausnahme Nummer 2 find ich auch sehr, bräuchten wir noch 'n bisschen mehr Text.",{"text":36949,"start":29730,"end":29739},"Es geht, wenn Noch",{"sentences":36951,"speaker":205,"num_words":857,"start":29739,"end":29745},[36952],{"text":36953,"start":29739,"end":29745},"mehr Text.",{"sentences":36955,"speaker":184,"num_words":36812,"start":29745,"end":29933},[36956,36958,36960,36962],{"text":36957,"start":29745,"end":29756},"Ja, noch mehr Text leider.",{"text":36959,"start":29760,"end":29863},"Wenn der Inhalt Teil 1 offensichtlich künstlichen, kreativen, satirischen oder fiktionalen Werks oder Programms ist, dann muss man's nicht ganz offen kennzeichnen, sondern es genügt ein angemessener Hinweis, der die Darstellung den Genuss nicht beeinträchtigt.",{"text":36961,"start":29866,"end":29909},"Also man muss es trotzdem hinweisen, aber halt nicht so, dass man das Werk nicht ordentlich konsumieren kann.",{"text":36963,"start":29909,"end":29933},"Also es kommt ja auch an 'n paar sehen.",{"sentences":36965,"speaker":205,"num_words":35412,"start":29937,"end":30016},[36966,36968],{"text":36967,"start":29937,"end":29955},"Fotoalbum mach mit 100 lustigen Richard Bildern.",{"text":36969,"start":29955,"end":30016},"Reicht das, wenn ich am Anfang oder am Ende einmal sag, das ist übrigens mein Richard AI Fotoalbum und dann muss es nicht auf jedes Bild draufkleben.",{"sentences":36971,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":30020,"end":30027},[36972],{"text":36973,"start":30020,"end":30027},"Ich vermute ja.",{"sentences":36975,"speaker":857,"num_words":35383,"start":30027,"end":30039},[36976],{"text":36977,"start":30027,"end":30039},"Ja, das würde reichen.",{"sentences":36979,"speaker":184,"num_words":36293,"start":30042,"end":30086},[36980,36981,36982],{"text":12421,"start":30042,"end":30043},{"text":12421,"start":30046,"end":30047},{"text":36983,"start":30049,"end":30086},"Oder Du übertreibst die Darstellung immer so, dass es ganz klar ist, das ist gar nicht echt.",{"sentences":36985,"speaker":205,"num_words":35265,"start":30090,"end":30200},[36986,36988,36990],{"text":36987,"start":30090,"end":30142},"Oh, das, also ja, ich versteh, was Du meinst, weil dann muss jedem klar sein, das kann nur mit AI entstanden sein.",{"text":36989,"start":30144,"end":30197},"Aber da, also da zweifel ich zu sehr an den Menschen, mir irgendwie vorzustellen, was was wär allen sofort klar, ja?",{"text":586,"start":30197,"end":30200},{"sentences":36992,"speaker":857,"num_words":35074,"start":30202,"end":30236},[36993],{"text":36994,"start":30202,"end":30236},"Oder Sicherheit auf dem Mond beispielsweise würde dir wahrscheinlich jetzt niemand so wirklich abnehmen.",{"sentences":36996,"speaker":184,"num_words":35168,"start":30239,"end":30387},[36997,36999,37001,37003,37005],{"text":36998,"start":30239,"end":30265},"Du mich 20, 30 Jahre älter warst, wer weiß.",{"text":37000,"start":30269,"end":30297},"Aber noch witzige Sache ist, das gilt ja nur für KI.",{"text":37002,"start":30299,"end":30329},"Wenn Du das mit Photoshop machst, gilt die KI Verordnung gar nicht mehr.",{"text":37004,"start":30332,"end":30362},"Das heißt, Du könntest mir sonen Breos anziehen, wie Du willst.",{"text":37006,"start":30364,"end":30387},"Diese Transparenzpflicht gilt nur für mit KI modifizierten Bilder.",{"sentences":37008,"speaker":205,"num_words":36005,"start":30387,"end":30441},[37009],{"text":37010,"start":30387,"end":30441},"Und im Zweifelsfall müsstest Du mir nachweisen, dass ich das mit KI gemacht hab und nicht mit Photoshop dir selber aufn Kopf gesetzt hab.",{"sentences":37012,"speaker":184,"num_words":35074,"start":30441,"end":30476},[37013,37015],{"text":37014,"start":30441,"end":30474},"Wenn ich das über diesen Gehweg gehen wollte und nicht über Persönlichkeitsrechte, ja.",{"text":592,"start":30474,"end":30476},{"sentences":37017,"speaker":857,"num_words":35246,"start":30479,"end":30613},[37018,37020,37022,37024,37026],{"text":37019,"start":30479,"end":30542},"Aber Du würdest ja tatsächlich eher aus Persönlichkeitsrechten oder aber sogar, je nach der Schärfe, auch aus strafrechtlichen Vorschriften vorgehen, ne.",{"text":37021,"start":30542,"end":30555},"Verletzung der Ehre oder was?",{"text":37023,"start":30557,"end":30564},"Verletzung der Ehre.",{"text":37025,"start":30564,"end":30592},"Dann gibt's auch im Kunst Urhebergesetz gibt's auch noch eine Strafvorschrift.",{"text":37027,"start":30595,"end":30613},"Ich glaube, also ne, wenn's 'n Bildnis ist.",{"sentences":37029,"speaker":857,"num_words":36075,"start":30613,"end":30673},[37030,37031,37033],{"text":15224,"start":30613,"end":30616},{"text":37032,"start":30619,"end":30630},"Also da gibt's diverse Möglichkeiten.",{"text":37034,"start":30633,"end":30673},"Müssten die Strafverfolgungsbehörden dann natürlich entsprechend tätig werden, aber per se gibt's durchaus da mehrere Möglichkeiten.",{"sentences":37036,"speaker":184,"num_words":35136,"start":30676,"end":30789},[37037,37039,37041],{"text":37038,"start":30676,"end":30730},"Interessant zu Deep Fake fand ich auch noch, Texte sind ja nicht in der Auflistung gewesen, Bild, Ton oder Video stand drin.",{"text":37040,"start":30732,"end":30743},"Texte können kein Deep Fake sein.",{"text":37042,"start":30745,"end":30789},"Also mit Texten kann ich theoretisch generieren lassen, ne, 'n Brief, als ob jemand was geschrieben hat oder so.",{"sentences":37044,"speaker":205,"num_words":35467,"start":30789,"end":30942},[37045,37047,37049,37051],{"text":37046,"start":30789,"end":30828},"Ja, aber wahrscheinlich, weil ich das vorher auch schon könnte und KI da überhaupt keinen Unterschied macht.",{"text":37048,"start":30828,"end":30907},"Also wenn ich jetzt in mein Dokument schreib, Richard hat gesagt, Jan ist doof, ob ich das von Hand schreib oder mit der KI mach, das macht's mir weder einfacher noch unscheinbarer.",{"text":37050,"start":30911,"end":30933},"Also da ist einfach überhaupt kein Unterschied zu vorher ersichtlich.",{"text":37052,"start":30936,"end":30942},"Wobei es ja",{"sentences":37054,"speaker":857,"num_words":35155,"start":30942,"end":30965},[37055,37057],{"text":37056,"start":30942,"end":30961},"auch eine Vorschrift gibt für Textmanipulation zu.",{"text":16949,"start":30961,"end":30965},{"sentences":37059,"speaker":184,"num_words":34998,"start":30965,"end":30975},[37060],{"text":37061,"start":30965,"end":30975},"Ja, ach, okay.",{"sentences":37063,"speaker":205,"num_words":34998,"start":30975,"end":30983},[37064,37066],{"text":37065,"start":30975,"end":30980},"Ja, genau.",{"text":2497,"start":30982,"end":30983},{"sentences":37068,"speaker":184,"num_words":35848,"start":30986,"end":31221},[37069,37071,37073,37075,37077],{"text":37070,"start":30986,"end":30998},"Aber es ist zwar kein Deepfake.",{"text":37072,"start":31002,"end":31097},"Es ist kein Deepfake, das heißt, dies alles, was wir mit Ausnahmen und Kennzeichen so gesprochen haben, das ist nicht der Fall, weil bei Deepfake geht's ja darum, ist es möglichst realistisch, dass man's glauben kann, wenn man das sieht?",{"text":37074,"start":31100,"end":31135},"Bei Text fällt einem das natürlich schwer, die Authentizität von bestimmten Wortnutzungen oder so.",{"text":37076,"start":31135,"end":31144},"Nee, das natürlich nicht.",{"text":37078,"start":31144,"end":31221},"Also haben sie was anderes geschrieben und gesagt, wenn der Zweck des Textes, ne, die Öffentlichkeit über Angelegenheiten von öffentlichem Interesse zu informieren ist, dann muss man das kennzeichnen.",{"sentences":37080,"speaker":184,"num_words":35297,"start":31223,"end":31436},[37081,37083,37085,37087,37089],{"text":37082,"start":31223,"end":31239},"Also es geht in eine ganz andere Richtung.",{"text":37084,"start":31243,"end":31319},"Und ich find das schon ziemlich relevant, a, wie kann Presse jetzt mit KI arbeiten oder wie ordnungsgemäß gehen sie damit Wie viel ist ihnen die Qualität dann auch wichtig?",{"text":37086,"start":31322,"end":31375},"Und Texte wär auch son Thema für Social Media Bots oder Phishingangriffe oder, okay, die werden sich an gar nix halten.",{"text":37088,"start":31375,"end":31423},"Aber Social Media Bots, ist das zulässig, wenn ich mir, wie viel 1000 Follower willst Du für programmierbar haben?",{"text":37090,"start":31426,"end":31436},"Also ja, dann, ja.",{"sentences":37092,"speaker":205,"num_words":35168,"start":31438,"end":31569},[37093,37095,37097,37099,37101],{"text":37094,"start":31438,"end":31455},"Okay, spannende Diskussion zu Deep Facts.",{"text":37096,"start":31458,"end":31482},"Ich hab noch am Ende immer eine letzte Frage für Peggy.",{"text":37098,"start":31485,"end":31498},"Welche Frage haben wir dir nicht gestellt?",{"text":37100,"start":31501,"end":31547},"Auf welches Thema hast Du dich vorbereitet und hast gesagt, das wär superspannend und da müssen wir unbedingt drüber reden.",{"text":37102,"start":31547,"end":31569},"Und jetzt hat der Jan mich gar nicht gefragt.",{"sentences":37104,"speaker":205,"num_words":37109,"start":31569,"end":31605},[37105,37107],{"text":37106,"start":31569,"end":31590},"Ich wollte unbedingt noch über Thema x y sprechen.",{"text":37108,"start":31593,"end":31605},"Gibt's was, was wir vergessen haben?",15,{"sentences":37111,"speaker":857,"num_words":35910,"start":31607,"end":31700},[37112,37114],{"text":37113,"start":31607,"end":31674},"Ich würde sagen, wir haben in dieser kurz Kürze der Zeit eigentlich 'n ganz guten Ritt durch die durch die aktuellen Problemen- und Minenfelder getan.",{"text":37115,"start":31674,"end":31700},"Ich wüsste jetzt nicht, ja, aus meiner Sicht fehlt nix.",{"sentences":37117,"speaker":184,"num_words":36277,"start":31703,"end":31794},[37118,37120,37121,37123,37125],{"text":37119,"start":31703,"end":31716},"Ich hab noch eine wichtige Frage.",{"text":31721,"start":31716,"end":31719},{"text":37122,"start":31723,"end":31771},"Ich als User von KI hör jetzt alles in dieser blöden Podcastfolge, was ich nicht mehr darf oder worauf ich achten muss.",{"text":37124,"start":31771,"end":31790},"Ab wann gilt das Ganze denn für mich?",{"text":586,"start":31793,"end":31794},{"sentences":37127,"speaker":857,"num_words":37134,"start":31797,"end":31999},[37128,37130,37132],{"text":37129,"start":31797,"end":31891},"Die also die Deep Fake Regelungen, die gelten erst ab 20 26 und alle urheberrechtlichen Bestimmungen und was wir vorher noch hatten, Persönlichkeitsrechte und so weiter, das sind natürlich bestehende Regelungen, die auch heute schon angewendet werden können.",{"text":37131,"start":31891,"end":31987},"Aber diese kennen, was wir gar nicht bisher erwähnt hatten, vielleicht noch einen Punkt, ist, dass auch die Anbieter von von KI Systemen zukünftig diese Deepfakes markieren müssen, ja, also in welcher Form das geschehen wird.",{"text":37133,"start":31987,"end":31999},"Ah, das ist Weißt",78,{"sentences":37136,"speaker":205,"num_words":35074,"start":31999,"end":32043},[37137],{"text":37138,"start":31999,"end":32043},"man aktuell, wenn man da immer dieser Google Germany Kristall da mit drin ist?",{"sentences":37140,"speaker":184,"num_words":35554,"start":32046,"end":32131},[37141,37142,37144,37146,37148],{"text":32050,"start":32046,"end":32047},{"text":37143,"start":32052,"end":32091},"Sie müssen's nicht so visuell machen wie Du als User, sondern sie müssen das auch digital machen.",{"text":37145,"start":32091,"end":32123},"Die haben eine Cindh ID heißt das, hast Du ja schon gehört.",{"text":37147,"start":32123,"end":32128},"Ja, ja.",{"text":592,"start":32128,"end":32131},{"sentences":37150,"speaker":184,"num_words":35356,"start":32131,"end":32157},[37151],{"text":37152,"start":32131,"end":32157},"Das ist in jedem Werk enthalten, dass man's einfach nachvollziehen kann.",{"sentences":37154,"speaker":205,"num_words":184,"start":32157,"end":32159},[37155],{"text":12421,"start":32157,"end":32159},{"sentences":37157,"speaker":857,"num_words":35302,"start":32162,"end":32206},[37158],{"text":37159,"start":32162,"end":32206},"Genau, also kann auch in den Metadaten passieren, ne, aber einfach, es muss ab 20 26 gekennzeichnet werden,",{"sentences":37161,"speaker":205,"num_words":37109,"start":32206,"end":32244},[37162,37164],{"text":37163,"start":32206,"end":32223},"ohnehin durch die Anbieter der KI Systeme.",{"text":37165,"start":32223,"end":32244},"Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wenn",{"sentences":37167,"speaker":857,"num_words":35192,"start":32244,"end":32285},[37168,37170],{"text":37169,"start":32244,"end":32251},"man Systeme.",{"text":37171,"start":32251,"end":32285},"Also sprich, dann wird man auch sehen, wie sich das dann in der Praxis darstellt.",{"sentences":37173,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":32288,"end":32292},[37174],{"text":37175,"start":32288,"end":32292},"Für für",{"sentences":37177,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":32292,"end":32306},[37178],{"text":37179,"start":32292,"end":32306},"Bilder und Videos oder für alles?",{"sentences":37181,"speaker":184,"num_words":35003,"start":32309,"end":32335},[37182],{"text":37183,"start":32309,"end":32335},"Ich hab verstanden für alles und ich hab mich echt gefragt, wie soll",{"sentences":37185,"speaker":205,"num_words":35356,"start":32335,"end":32362},[37186,37188,37189],{"text":37187,"start":32335,"end":32340},"der Text?",{"text":592,"start":32340,"end":32344},{"text":37190,"start":32344,"end":32362},"Das wär jetzt nämlich auch meine Frage gewesen.",{"sentences":37192,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":32365,"end":32369},[37193],{"text":37194,"start":32365,"end":32369},"Ich weiß.",{"sentences":37196,"speaker":205,"num_words":36005,"start":32369,"end":32430},[37197,37199],{"text":37198,"start":32369,"end":32382},"Der Text hat keine Metadaten.",{"text":37200,"start":32385,"end":32430},"Aber okay, müssen wir mal das nächste Mal, wenn wir mit 'nem Anbieter von KI Systemen reden, dann noch",{"sentences":37202,"speaker":857,"num_words":35051,"start":32430,"end":32534},[37203,37205,37206,37208],{"text":37204,"start":32430,"end":32435},"mal nachfragen.",{"text":16949,"start":32439,"end":32440},{"text":37207,"start":32442,"end":32507},"So wie bei DeepL, wo man dann, wenn man was automatisch übersetzt, ja, dann kriegt man ja auch unten immer diesen kleinen Hinweis übersetzt mit DeepL, ja.",{"text":37209,"start":32507,"end":32534},"Ja, das ist Und den löscht man dann raus und dann",{"sentences":37211,"speaker":205,"num_words":35407,"start":32536,"end":32604},[37212],{"text":37213,"start":32536,"end":32604},"Genau, also es gibt ja Leute, die sich 'n Geschäftsmodell daraus gemacht haben, ne, KI generierte Texte zu erkennen und so was alles, Plakatsoftware an Unis und",{"sentences":37215,"speaker":184,"num_words":35036,"start":32607,"end":32620},[37216],{"text":37217,"start":32607,"end":32620},"Die werd's einfach haben, ne.",{"sentences":37219,"speaker":205,"num_words":37229,"start":32623,"end":32784},[37220,37221,37223,37225,37227],{"text":32627,"start":32623,"end":32624},{"text":37222,"start":32629,"end":32661},"Ja, ja, das ist die Frage, ob die's dann wirklich so einfach haben oder nicht.",{"text":37224,"start":32663,"end":32688},"Aber wie gesagt, das ist dann 'n Thema für eine andere Folge.",{"text":37226,"start":32688,"end":32723},"Irgendwann in 20 26, wenn das da ist und wir das uns angucken können.",{"text":37228,"start":32725,"end":32784},"Okay, bevor wir uns aber hier alle verabschieden, haben wir noch und ich hab von Richard gehört, dass er auf jeden Fall was am Start hat.",68,{"sentences":37231,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":32784,"end":32794},[37232],{"text":37233,"start":32784,"end":32794},"Deswegen darf Richard anfangen.",{"sentences":37235,"speaker":184,"num_words":35529,"start":32797,"end":32964},[37236,37238,37240],{"text":37237,"start":32797,"end":32809},"Pick of the day.",{"text":37239,"start":32812,"end":32933},"Ja, bei mir kam gestern was ganz Tolles an und ich konnte es leider nicht mal aufschlagen und zwar das Sonderheft der Make 20 25 mit Ikea Hacks über Möbeltuning und wie man Sachen smart und toll macht und noch besser und viel Spaß dabei hat.",{"text":37241,"start":32935,"end":32964},"Das wär mein, ohne zu wissen, was drinsteht, aber ich bin sehr gehypt.",{"sentences":37243,"speaker":205,"num_words":35031,"start":32964,"end":32981},[37244,37246],{"text":37245,"start":32964,"end":32979},"Blanko Pick of the day.",{"text":32983,"start":32979,"end":32981},{"sentences":37248,"speaker":184,"num_words":35155,"start":32981,"end":33002},[37249],{"text":37250,"start":32981,"end":33002},"Blanko Pick of the day, ja, viel Spaß.",{"sentences":37252,"speaker":205,"num_words":35064,"start":33005,"end":33068},[37253,37255],{"text":37254,"start":33005,"end":33020},"Musst Du auf jeden Fall mal mitbringen.",{"text":37256,"start":33020,"end":33068},"Ich hab ja auch das ein oder andere IKEA Möbelstück zu Hause stehen und vielleicht kann ich da noch",{"sentences":37258,"speaker":184,"num_words":35003,"start":33070,"end":33105},[37259],{"text":37260,"start":33070,"end":33105},"Die Möbel passe alle in meinem Opel Adam rein, das wird kein Problem.",{"sentences":37262,"speaker":205,"num_words":35265,"start":33107,"end":33220},[37263,37265,37267,37268,37270],{"text":37264,"start":33107,"end":33157},"Nein, ich mein, das ist nicht unbedingt von den Möbeln, ich dachte, kannst Du einfach den Make mitbringen und das zeigen.",{"text":37266,"start":33157,"end":33188},"Das nicht dein Hausstand durch die Gegend fahren, Richard.",{"text":990,"start":33191,"end":33192},{"text":37269,"start":33192,"end":33205},"Dann von Richard einmal die Make.",{"text":37271,"start":33205,"end":33220},"Peggy, hast Du was für uns dabei?",{"sentences":37273,"speaker":857,"num_words":35876,"start":33223,"end":33404},[37274,37276,37278],{"text":37275,"start":33223,"end":33305},"Ihr überfahrt mich 'n bisschen mit dieser Frage, aber mein wäre etwas zum Lesen, und zwar ein Buch, ein wunderbares Buch, was ich grade gelesen hab von Christoph Heim, das Narrenschiff.",{"text":37277,"start":33308,"end":33394},"Und zwar erzählt es die Geschichte der DDR aus der Perspektive der politisch, Gründung bis bis Mauerfall, sehr spannendes Buch und für mich insbesondere, weil ich ja da auch gebürtig bin.",{"text":37279,"start":33394,"end":33404},"Deshalb klare Leseempfehlung.",{"sentences":37281,"speaker":205,"num_words":35325,"start":33408,"end":33491},[37282,37284,37286,37288],{"text":37283,"start":33408,"end":33447},"Ist das so, ich glaub, das ist son relativ neues Genre, ne, so im Prinzip.",{"text":37285,"start":33447,"end":33481},"Also ist das eine eine reelle Biografie oder ist das ein Roman?",{"text":37287,"start":33481,"end":33488},"Ist 'n Roman.",{"text":12421,"start":33488,"end":33491},{"sentences":37290,"speaker":857,"num_words":36005,"start":33493,"end":33564},[37291,37293],{"text":37292,"start":33493,"end":33522},"Bei alternativ denke ich immer direkt an alternative Fakten, ja.",{"text":37294,"start":33524,"end":33564},"Also ich, es ist, glaube ich, tatsächlich sehr faktenbasiert, aber natürlich in Romanform eingebunden.",{"sentences":37296,"speaker":205,"num_words":35149,"start":33567,"end":33851},[37297,37299,37301,37303,37305],{"text":37298,"start":33567,"end":33624},"Ja, also das ist vielleicht doch genau das, was ich meine, das ist son Genre, was ich vor 'n paar Jahren so für mich entdeckt hab.",{"text":37300,"start":33624,"end":33646},"Ich hab da schon so superviele Bücher gelesen, so.",{"text":37302,"start":33648,"end":33802},"1 der letzten, was ich gelesen hab, war so die die Mondlandung aus Perspektive 1 NASA Ingenieurs, der den's halt nie gab oder so, ja, aber alles, was halt so ihn herum passiert, halt 100 Prozent real und das hätte im Prinzip alles so passieren können, das ist einfach, ich sag mal, 'n etwas unterhaltsamerer Weg, reale Geschichte irgendwie einfach darzustellen, ne.",{"text":37304,"start":33802,"end":33818},"Das liest sich immer ganz bequem.",{"text":37306,"start":33818,"end":33851},"Und ich weiß nicht, wer auf Apple TV, oh Gott, wie heißt das?",{"sentences":37308,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":33851,"end":33863},[37309],{"text":37310,"start":33851,"end":33863},"Raumfahrtserie Apple TV Richard.",{"sentences":37312,"speaker":184,"num_words":857,"start":33865,"end":33871},[37313],{"text":37314,"start":33865,"end":33871},"The Expanse.",{"sentences":37316,"speaker":205,"num_words":35383,"start":33874,"end":33883},[37317,37319],{"text":37318,"start":33874,"end":33880},"Nein, die andere.",{"text":5153,"start":33880,"end":33883},{"sentences":37321,"speaker":184,"num_words":35383,"start":33883,"end":33893},[37322],{"text":37323,"start":33883,"end":33893},"finde ich aber gut.",{"sentences":37325,"speaker":205,"num_words":35529,"start":33893,"end":34058},[37326,37328,37330,37332,37333],{"text":37327,"start":33893,"end":33917},"Ja, die ist auch gut, aber ich meinte die andere.",{"text":37329,"start":33920,"end":33973},"Beyond, nein, heißt sie und die fangen ja auch an so mit, ne, wie war das Wettrennen zum Mond und so.",{"text":37331,"start":33973,"end":34028},"Und das läuft einfach so ein, 2 Sachen anders als eine Möglichkeit, aber ist halt alles sehr so groundingd in History irgendwie.",{"text":592,"start":34031,"end":34032},{"text":37334,"start":34034,"end":34058},"Oder andersrum, ich nehm das jetzt einfach als Pick.",{"sentences":37336,"speaker":205,"num_words":37347,"start":34058,"end":34488},[37337,37339,37341,37343,37345],{"text":37338,"start":34058,"end":34078},"So, das ist jetzt voll bekannt.",{"text":37340,"start":34082,"end":34298},"Und Peggy hat mich darauf gemacht, Apple TV, abgefahrene Serie, das, wie gesagt, startet mit dem Rennen zum Mond und in der ersten Folge, das so viel kann man, glaube ich, spoilern, schaffen es, schafft die Sowjetunion es quasi als Erstes auf dem Mond und der Rest der Staffel geht dann eigentlich nur darum so, wie hat sich das Mondprogramm der NASA anders entwickelt aufgrund von, eine Sache ist halt irgendwie anders gelaufen, als sie wirklich gelaufen ist, und das bringt dann son Stein ins Rollen.",{"text":37342,"start":34298,"end":34407},"Es ist alles nicht abgefahren, ist Science Fiction, es ist alles, hätte so passieren können, aber ist einfach nur son interessanter Take von, was, wenn ein, 2 Sachen in der Geschichte anders gelaufen wären und was hätte das für Einflüsse alles haben können, so.",{"text":37344,"start":34409,"end":34448},"Ganz interessant, kann man sich mal antun auf Apple TV, for All Men.",{"text":37346,"start":34448,"end":34488},"Kein, mittlerweile, glaub ich, schon, weiß nicht, 5 oder 6 Staffeln oder so richtig gut.",164,{"sentences":37349,"speaker":205,"num_words":35197,"start":34490,"end":34542},[37350,37351,37353],{"text":990,"start":34490,"end":34491},{"text":37352,"start":34493,"end":34518},"Dann sind wir durch mit unserer Folge zu AI und Rechten.",{"text":37354,"start":34518,"end":34542},"Erst mal danke Richard, dass Du wieder mit am Start warst.",{"sentences":37356,"speaker":184,"num_words":184,"start":34542,"end":34546},[37357],{"text":34549,"start":34542,"end":34546},{"sentences":37359,"speaker":205,"num_words":35567,"start":34551,"end":34874},[37360,37362,37364,37366,37368],{"text":37361,"start":34551,"end":34629},"Und natürlich danke Peggy, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast für uns hier, Rede und Antwort zu stehen über Deep Fakes, über KI Modelle, über Rechte und Pflichten von Anbietern und Kunden.",{"text":37363,"start":34631,"end":34749},"Und wir hoffen, das hat euch da draußen mindestens genauso viel Spaß gemacht wie uns hier und euch im Idealfall noch viel weitergebracht und vielleicht ein, 2 Schritte weiter und näher zu eurem KI Produkt, an dem ihr grade grade arbeitet oder über das ihr grade nachdenkt.",{"text":37365,"start":34752,"end":34801},"Falls ihr Fragen, Anregungen, Kritik, Feedback habt, dann könnt ihr gerne euch auf unserem Discord Server melden.",{"text":37367,"start":34801,"end":34818},"Ihr könnt uns auf Social Media erreichen.",{"text":37369,"start":34818,"end":34874},"Ihr könnt uns Kommentare schreiben auf LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter gibt's nicht mehr, aber Blues Guy und Masolon gibt's noch.",{"sentences":37371,"speaker":205,"num_words":35412,"start":34877,"end":34972},[37372,37374,37376,37378],{"text":37373,"start":34877,"end":34948},"Ihr könnt es gerne schreiben oder ihr schreibt uns die E-Mail an Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar und damit verabschieden wir uns und hören uns in 2 Wochen wieder.",{"text":37375,"start":34951,"end":34955},"Bis dann.",{"text":37377,"start":34959,"end":34966},"Ciao, 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